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Old 11-08-2018, 02:00 PM   #11
ericthered
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Default Re: Elven Poltics

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I once did a version of elves for D&D based on their being majority Chaotic Good and vastly long lived. So my version had "kings" who didn't pass on their position to the offspring and just abdicated when they realized they had lost the respect of the people in favour of someone who was more respected. It was unofficial democracy.
One thing to understand about elven government is that leaders don't naturally die. They could fall out of favor or be murdered, but the king doesn't just randomly pass away and cause a succession crisis.

This likely results in the word for king being the name of the current king. He isn't "Elrond, king of the elves", he is "Elrond", which is also his title, kind of like "Ceasar" and if you don't know who Elrond is, what rock have you been under for the last few centuries?

Leadership changes are likely to be informal, at least where they start. Everyone (or at least a large portion of everyone) remembers when Elrond (or whoever) first became their leader. He likely emerged out of a period of strife, or solved a large problem. He will be his own founding legend, and his legitimacy comes from his past actions.


Even if you have a democracy, the same seven elves will be in the running for the chief office every cycle, extending across millennia.
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Old 11-08-2018, 05:31 PM   #12
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Default Re: Elven Poltics

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Somewhat stable.their eastern and north borders are Mountains which only one major pass not far outside their North western borders. To surface of the Mountains is Controlled Gnomes and under by Dwarves, though occasional Orcs, Goblin, Kobolds and Drow raiders make though minor passes/underdark (the Drow is considered the Major threat no just because the other more easily stopped by the Gnomes, but because Drow were a warped "offshoot" of elves (Action of two evil gods who cannot create their own from scratch) as well as undark entrances are closer.

The Western border is a Human kingdom with a minority Halfling population (mostly made of wandering traders)

The Southern border is Bay control by Antro-Penguins who pirate most fishing.

That Major mount Pass is technically in Human lands, but the Humans, Elves and Dwarves have a Mutual alliance the Guard the Pass, to the North of Pass is the "Warped lands" which has no government more powerful than a city state , before you get to the Orc empire.
Okay, but what pressures does this put elven society to which it reacts?

Other questions:
How old, really, is this society? How many children have been born to the founders and had children of their own? Is a generation even meaningful to them?

How old it is lets you know how many crises they have endured and what a new one might look like. ("Another dwarf civil war? Break out ol' plan 236 B, it worked the last five times.") The more experience they have, they less they have to find new solutions... or at least feel they have to. Maybe they have an innate love of novelty.

How big is this society? How many elves, and spread out over how much land? The forms of organization needed for a few hundred elves spread out over the continent-spanning Great Forest are going to be different from that required for the ten thousand elves packed into the City of Timeless Light and its small hinterlands behind the Wall.

How quickly do they communicate? If the King can send a message to the entire kingdom in the space of a day, it's going to be quite different from a culture where news of happenings on the border take several years to reach the center(s) of power.
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Old 11-08-2018, 05:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: Elven Poltics

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
One thing to understand about elven government is that leaders don't naturally die. They could fall out of favor or be murdered, but the king doesn't just randomly pass away and cause a succession crisis.
I would say Ennui can result in death too for elves, if they lose the will to live.
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Old 11-08-2018, 07:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: Elven Poltics

I had original invision being more generic, but Sure I'll give you more detail of reference world i was going apply the results to.

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Okay, but what pressures does this put elven society to which it reacts?
Well Raids from Drow and other monster attacks means the forests need to be patrolled, plus maintain their Share to man the Shieldwall Fortress at the Pass against an Orcish army.

The humans to west is ruled by a Queen-priestess of the Goddess of Protection (who trace their lineage to a Demigod Daughter of that god) so no partially expansionist, but have a loose alliances with a couple of attempts to found city states north of the pass, that might become Duchies of the turn out to be viable.

There will of course how to interact with Halfling traders.

Their southern bay border transitioning into a Mangrove swamp so Sea is really open to them.

Quote:
Other questions:
How old, really, is this society? How many children have been born to the founders and had children of their own? Is a generation even meaningful to them?

How old it is lets you know how many crises they have endured and what a new one might look like. ("Another dwarf civil war? Break out ol' plan 236 B, it worked the last five times.") The more experience they have, they less they have to find new solutions... or at least feel they have to. Maybe they have an innate love of novelty.
The probably been around since the Rebellion against Dragons, when the Gods revealed themselves to Mortals (including the Goddess of Magic teaching the first Mage) I've not decide whether then any elves who remember these times first hand still around, but if there are any there not many.

with a low birth rate, they probably don't have big generational divide bans beyond the basic Energetic Youth and Mature.

After age of Growth where Elves, Dwarves, Humans, Gnomes and Halfling Explored and spread out. The God of Hatred provoked the god of (Destructive) Chaos that he could not create a races of followers for himself, cause a Cataclysm that not own reshaped the land is also Cause some elves to birth the first Drow (Drewgar, Orcs, Kolbolds and Goblins came from simal warping of the other races) as well as create Antro released (the Warped ones) out of animals. But Shieldwall mounts were sacred to the Goddess of protect and the land cradled be the mounds and the Bay were speared most of the ravages, but any kingdoms outside were lost contact with. Hand to deal with what ended up the expulsion of the drow into the underdark, as they were made a warped parody of Elves who are predominately selfish sadistic bullies. But each of the neighbors had to deal with similar troubles

Since then there was a Human Sorcerer (Sorcery innate Magic that comes from having Dragonblood) Turned Lich and developed necromantic spell that could could actually destroy a soul. This is a setting works on reincarnation so this set the Human kingdom on a holy war against the Lich and Arcane Necromancy in general.

Quote:
How big is this society? How many elves, and spread out over how much land? The forms of organization needed for a few hundred elves spread out over the continent-spanning Great Forest are going to be different from that required for the ten thousand elves packed into the City of Timeless Light and its small hinterlands behind the Wall.
I handed designed an exact size, but I was probably invitation about the size of a large european country, but not with human level population density due to their in balance with nature aesthetic.

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How quickly do they communicate? If the King can send a message to the entire kingdom in the space of a day, it's going to be quite different from a culture where news of happenings on the border take several years to reach the center(s) of power.
They have Magic but don't think I want a magical mass communication after all lack of such rapid commission creatures the window in indepence the allows for adventures.
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: Elven Poltics

Is there any separation of powers? Ceremonial / theological roles, such as the Roman Aediles, or admistrative or judicial roles, like those of the Tribunes?
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Old 11-08-2018, 10:09 PM   #16
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The elves in my fantasy world have quite different politics in different culture areas. There are elves who live in small warbands in a country shared with trolls; elves who have a potlatch culture where judicial decision are made by skilled dreamers; elves who have an elaborate hierarchy that grants authority over valued natural resources to trusted administrators; elves in an elaborate courtly society that practices selective breeding of all lifeforms, including elves themselves, and resolves differences through artistic contests; refugees from that culture to a land across a wide sea where they have established estates among less advanced elves . . . I tried very hard to have every race have multiple cultures with different customs.
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Old 11-12-2018, 12:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Elven Poltics

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Granting the assumptions that the elves we're talking about have longevity that effectively Unaging once they finish their 100 year adolescence, and due to their magic they economically live in effectively post scarcity prestige economy.

I was consider ennui be a one of the intractable issues that divide their politics which the major divisions would mastering a skill vers dabbling in many. What do you see the political system evolving out of this situation?
It depends in part on how human the elves are. That is, in what ways do their minds and psychologies differ from ours aside from immortality? Because that will make a big difference in what kind of society and state immortality produces.

For ex, what is their reproductive rate compared to mortals? With immortality the society could sustain itself with a tiny female fertility rate, just enough to allow for accident and occasional violence. For humans in a relatively non-violent society/situation, the 'sustain rate' is about 2.1 or so. For immortal elves it might be 0.0001.

So imagine an elven society where reproduction is restricted to nobility. The entire society might be a single interlocked noble family. You might actually have a very substantial population, of brothers and sisters and first cousins, all made up of offspring of the nobility. Your brother or sister might be 1000 years older or younger.

This would never work with humans, even immortal humans, because it doesn't fit human biological/psychological nature. But it might with a different race that thinks differently.
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Old 11-12-2018, 12:52 AM   #18
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Default Re: Elven Poltics

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It depends in part on how human the elves are. That is, in what ways do their minds and psychologies differ from ours aside from immortality? Because that will make a big difference in what kind of society and state immortality produces.

For ex, what is their reproductive rate compared to mortals? With immortality the society could sustain itself with a tiny female fertility rate, just enough to allow for accident and occasional violence. For humans in a relatively non-violent society/situation, the 'sustain rate' is about 2.1 or so. For immortal elves it might be 0.0001.

So imagine an elven society where reproduction is restricted to nobility. The entire society might be a single interlocked noble family. You might actually have a very substantial population, of brothers and sisters and first cousins, all made up of offspring of the nobility. Your brother or sister might be 1000 years older or younger.

This would never work with humans, even immortal humans, because it doesn't fit human biological/psychological nature. But it might with a different race that thinks differently.
This makes me think of bee like elves with a single fertile queen in each nation. :)
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:55 PM   #19
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This makes me think of bee like elves with a single fertile queen in each nation. :)
I could imagine such a society working a little along that line. Imagine that an Elven 'nation' is unified by the oldest common ancestor, a literal patriarchy/matriarchy. Only the nobles can reproduce, the younger offspring make up the commoners.

When the King/Queen finally does die or is killed or transcends of whatever, the 'nation' breaks up into smaller states around the seniormost offspring, and maybe some of the next-oldest siblings become new nobles in the new states.

One might expect this to lead to alliances between the new states, and it sometimes might, but siblings are sometimes known to hate each other, too...
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Elven Poltics

Another element could be accountable delegates. X votes to show for a vote of no confidence.

Also after so many decades would the elves actually get bored of doing the same thing, day in, day out...?

Normally long living animals tend not be very prolific. This could be the same with the Elves, babies are rare due to their longevity. Or maybe Elves go a bit crazy after so many centuries.

The immortals in Zardoz could not breed. But their society still had methods of punishment, instead of prison they were aged, some gave up an became apathetic and required a degree of care. However, if they died they were reborn via the 'Tabernacle'. Despite building their utopian society it became a nightmare to live among the immortals because society ceased to evolve.
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