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Old 11-08-2018, 01:22 PM   #11
Rasputin
 
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I have some questions about what people feel should be in a DFRPG-dedicated treasure generator.
  • Should the weapons/armor/enchantments only include items from DFRPG-specific books? (my inclination is yes)
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
  • Should they be restricted to just the DFRPG boxed set? (my inclination is no, but everything will have a page reference so you know where to find it)
No, but stick to the weapons and armor in the boxed set, and use those values and weights.
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  • Should mundane items with no special rules (from GURPS) be included?
  • Should mundane items with no special rules (from real life or made up, not GURPS) be included?
I've been working on ACKS-style trade goods for awhile. Something like those would make good items. The lists have to be curated, however.
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
Based on my own automated treasure generator implementation, I'd suggest that you have this configurable as a percentage of the total hoard value, but set a sensible minimum. Otherwise, you could spend years waiting for the random generation of an item worth $7.29 or some other absurd small value to finish off a coin-free hoard.
Yes, in a mixed horde the coins will be leveraged to "pad out" the total value - ie the coins are figured after everything else, when I know exactly how much value I have to work with.

When without coins, I intend to follow the same philosophy that I do when building random hoards in the Dungeons on Automatic dungeon generator (when using the DF8 treasure service instead of just suggesting a target value).

In DoA, a horde is assigned a target value which has wiggle room; after a certain amount of flailing trying to hit it exactly, I give up and the user gets what they gets. On DoA I accept treasure that busts through the cap (by a modest amount), and I also accept the horde as complete if it's a modest amount smaller than the goal. IIRC if it has to reject an item 20 times for not being able to make the value work, it quits.

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That's what I did. The use of dice was purely for the use of humans. A machine-based implementation shouldn't have to lean on that.
I have actually a half-working generator that hews closely to DF8 - the part where it can take arbitrary dice-powered tables that may give instructions to go to other dice powered tables that give instructions to... etc. It can literally take in the DF8 tables and Do Things with them.

The part that doesn't work is taking the Things it gets back and making a handy result, like finding the final dollar value or making a readable English description instead of just spewing out the names of the table entries.

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
In my own implementation, I did something in this direction by checking/unchecking subcategories, limiting random choices to or excluding them as desired. For example, the armory of a fighting order might consist entirely of arms and armor, while a long-lost dungeon might contain no perishable items (that is, no cloth, no paper, no leather, etc.). This is something which could be implemented broadly with proper use of item attributes, but coming up with proper attributes to reflect specific "treasure type" conditions could be tricky.
One possibility is to use "tag" type db-filtering logic, where the user can pick appropriate sounding tags. Items that match more of the tags are weighted heavier, items that match less of the tags are weighted lighter, and items that match none of the tags are completely excluded from the possibilities.

Categories (like the ones in DF8) are "harder" divisions than the tags - a combination of the two, plus value limiting, would give pretty fine control.

But I'd have to go through and tag every item in the database, or find a willing victim volunteer to do it.
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Old 11-08-2018, 02:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Yes
No, but stick to the weapons and armor in the boxed set, and use those values and weights.
One Day I need to figure out an elegant way to include user content, or to allow people to include user content.

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I've been working on ACKS-style trade goods for awhile. Something like those would make good items. The lists have to be curated, however.
OK, Google is failing me again. What is ACKS?
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Old 11-08-2018, 03:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

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OK, Google is failing me again. What is ACKS?
Adventurer Conquer King System


I have an example of its treasure hoards here. I have a makeshift version of its treasure goods in GURPS, actually; Pulver’s article on low-tech trading is handy for this.
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Old 11-08-2018, 03:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

I am very excited about this! I would have used your program at least a dozen times in the past month. I love random treasure generators. I end up using a bunch of different ones for different game systems. Something intended specifically for DFRPG would be fantastic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
  • Should the weapons/armor/enchantments only include items from DFRPG-specific books? (my inclination is yes)
  • Should they be restricted to just the DFRPG boxed set? (my inclination is no, but everything will have a page reference so you know where to find it)
I don't have strong opinions about which sources items come from. (I tend to buy everything that SJG produces; I just like DFRPG because it's so easy to introduce new players to.)

Quote:
  • Should mundane items with no special rules (from GURPS) be included?
  • Should mundane items with no special rules (from real life or made up, not GURPS) be included?
Yes and yes! I particularly like mundane items with interesting descriptions. I might not use them as-is, but they give me ideas. One of my favorite resources from my D&D days was Ed Greenwood's article, "Treasures Rare and Wondrous," from Dragon #80. It included unusual things like a gold tooth, a fancy salt cellar, and a jeweled chamberpot.

Quote:
  • Should I include some custom quality modifiers for some things that don't have them (e.g. a flawless emerald, a broken lute, an ugly necklace)?
Adjectives are always good.
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

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I have to be careful that it doesn't get too Dwarf Fortress in there though.
The hardened adventures tossed the last bags of loot onto the wagon, and paused to wipe sweat from brows, drink some refreshments*, and catch their breaths.

Stenet, the Dwarven Holy Warrior, ran his beady eyes and bristling beard over the treasure sacks, bulging with coin, busted armor, rusting weapons, scrounged junk, and other mildly valuable shinnies.

"So, Sten, we got it all eh," joked Azrael the Exorcist, clapping his shoulder, "Wouldn't do to leave anything behind..."

He trailed off as he saw Stennet's beard quiver and jerk about on it's own.

"What's...?"

The grizzled old Torchbearer Walter quipped, "Oh, that's just that old Dwarven loot sense. Only worry if-"

Stenet let out a groan as his beard drug him around to face the stairs leading back down.

"- Dang it! Grab him!"

Stenet took off like a shot, his stubby legs barely propelling him along behind his beard, "We left a sock behind..."





* Gnomco brand Adventurer Guzzeline! Remember, if it ain't Gnomco, it ain't Gnom!
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Old 11-08-2018, 09:59 PM   #17
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

I’m exited to see this.

I’d lean towards the tables being DFRPG specific, the toggle would be great.
I’ve been gifting boxes of dfrpg to young relations and haven’t upped them to GURPS-ness yet... then again, not sure they’d be using the generator anyway. If you’re in far enough to find your generator and use it, you’re probably in far enough to have all the sources. The armor distinction is definitely important to toggle one or the other, though.

Mundane items IN!
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

I'll get back to data entry and tagging once I'm done with another project I'm working on... That could take some time though.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:26 AM   #19
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

So, seeing the general response, I figure I should post a status update.

First: I'm currently estimating the site going live at the end of December. Estimate subject to change without notice.

For the first release, I may not have all the item categories. I currently have
  1. Weapons
  2. Armor
  3. Jewelry
  4. Gems

I don't have quality modifiers, embellishments, or enchantments yet (I'm working on quality now). I do have a "chance to be decorated with gems" in, however, and the gems have qualities (rough-cut, through to flawless) but I have a persistent bug where sometimes gems get three qualities :P

For features I expect to support at first release, I'm (currently) targeting the following:
  • generate one or multiple items (Done)
  • chance of applying special qualities (Fine, Elven) (in progress)
  • chance of applying enchantments
  • specify what categories items can be picked from, of the categories available at the time
  • restrict items to an input value range
  • input a target total value for a horde ("I want $10,000 worth of stuff")

The following features are (currently) slated for later updates.
  • Combine item input value range restriction and horde with total target value
  • force enchantments or forbid enchantments
  • force special qualities or forbid special qualities
  • for hordes: include, exclude, or force part of the horde to be randomly chosen coins
  • "What has it got in its pocketses" option - creates small, low value items likely to be found in the pocket of a random humanoid, including some non-treasure items like pretty rocks and notes.
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Last edited by Bruno; 11-10-2018 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 11-10-2018, 04:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Questions about random treasure generation

This is maybe getting a little beyond the scope, but you could put the lair treasure algorithms from my blog into there somewhere. For a later date.
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