[MA] Draw Cut

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by ULFGARD

However, I would expect that this might be an excellent fencing maneuver for some of the straight edged fencing weapons, which were often of higher quality and might well be razor sharp (in part because they weren't expected to hit armor) and would be used against civilians rather than armored soldiers.

It is definitely a technique for fighting unarmored opponents, and so probably saw more use in civilian duels than battles.

It is taught in historical fencing, but I think it was also taught in some Kenjutusu schools (although I could be wrong about that).

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

making the cut longer but shallower.

That's not quite right. I think a good draw cut will cut deeper, at least for a light sword like a fencing weapon.

A slight damage bonus against flesh with the significant drawback of being worthless about armor are indispensable parts of the concept for me.

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

Draw Cuts use Thr-based cutting damage and they reduce the penalty to target veins and arteries to that of the respective limb or neck.

I'm not crazy about the mechanics of this: there would literally no reason ever to use this technique except to target veins and arteries.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This is largely a misconception. Most swords, intended for combat, for most of history were sharpened as much as possible within the limits of the material.
Swords intended for half-swording weren't edged below the ricosso. Also nearly every sword style that I'm personally aware of includes at minimum leather gloves, and often actual gauntlets.

Yes, I supposed so. But would they be sharp enough (say an early medieval broadsword) to do this? If so, that's great -- but I really envisioned this being used with finer and newer blades.

Originally Posted by aesir23

It is definitely a technique for fighting unarmored opponents, and so probably saw more use in civilian duels than battles.

It is taught in historical fencing, but I think it was also taught in some Kenjutusu schools (although I could be wrong about that).

That's not quite right. I think a good draw cut will cut deeper, at least for a light sword like a fencing weapon.

Ah, that's just what I was imagining -- more as a thr cut attack using a lighter blade that ordinarily wouldn't be all that effective (due to being light) when swung. (Though not the case for a katana, but that's the *other* type of blade I imagined with this; I don't imagine a viking longsword being used with this technique; correct me if I'm wrong.)

A slight damage bonus against flesh with the significant drawback of being worthless about armor are indispensable parts of the concept for me.

I'm not crazy about the mechanics of this: there would literally no reason ever to use this technique except to target veins and arteries.

There may be a good mechanic for increasing bleeding (such as giving a penalty on bleeding rolls) from such a wound. Just a thought.

[martinl]

Random observation - isn't one of the advantages of this kind of attack is that it is feasible at close ranges where a swing would have no room?

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by ULFGARD

I don't imagine a viking longsword being used with this technique; correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I think you're right. I just think that the reason you're right is that most of the Vikings foes wore armor.

Originally Posted by ULFGARD

There may be a good mechanic for increasing bleeding (such as giving a penalty on bleeding rolls) from such a wound. Just a thought.

That's a good thought, but bleeding rolls are once every minute, so most GURPS fights would be over before the fighter saw a benefit.

I may just note that the extra damage is due to bleeding (and that people with Injury Tolerance (No Blood) ignore it.)

And I think I will make allow it reduced penalties for targeting veins and arteries, just not as far as you suggested.

Originally Posted by martinl

Random observation - isn't one of the advantages of this kind of attack is that it is feasible at close ranges where a swing would have no room?

Yes. Excellent point. Perhaps I should have it reduce the close combat penalties (although, would it stack with Close Combat? How about Reverse Grip?)

I shall have to think on this some more.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by aesir23

No, I think you're right. I just think that the reason you're right is that most of the Vikings foes wore armor.

That seems unlikely. Didn't most combatants (as sharply distinct from most elite combatants) in pretty much any period fight with little to no armor?

[Dammann]

re: damage bonus

I don't know if this should scale with ST... I think damage would be affected more by the length of the edge, the sharpness, etc. When you slice food up, you want a sharp blade so that you apply minimal force (and longer blades tend to make for more consistent results). We don't have a handy stat for that sort of thing, though.

I might base the damage on the swing damage bonus of the weapon, I guess, to recognize that this uses the edge rather than the tip, but roll for thrust damage? That will be similar for most swords, but less for knives, which feels right to me. I like the idea of increased bleeding; maybe cause HT rolls for bleeding to occur more often than once per minute? This might be great for dispatching sentries by slashing the throat?

The images that spring to mind for me are the above-mentioned sentry attack, characters who cut their own hands when they dramatically swear some sort of oath, the above-mentioned vegetable and meat cutting, and Zorro's tip slash (although that is already covered by Tip Slash (MA, p113)).

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That seems unlikely. Didn't most combatants (as sharply distinct from most elite combatants) in pretty much any period fight with little to no armor?

Your probably right, although those weren't the foes they would have been most worried about.

We don't really know if the Vikings incorporated something like a draw cut, or not. They didn't leave any manuals.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Dammann

I don't know if this should scale with ST...

I was thinking the same thing.

Originally Posted by Dammann

I might base the damage on the swing damage bonus of the weapon, I guess, to recognize that this uses the edge rather than the tip, but roll for thrust damage?

Yep, that's what I think I'm going to do.

[aesir23]

2nd Draft, incorporating some of the changes we've been discussing.

Draw Cut Hard
Defaults to any sword, knife, or fencing skill at -3, or Axe/Mace, Two-Handed Axe/Mace, or Polearm -5. Cannot be improved above Default Skill.

The draw cut involves dragging your blade across the your opponent's flesh. This is a highly damaging attack as it engages as much of your cutting edge as possible. In order to use this technique, you must be weilding a weapon capable of making cutting attacks with a blade at least 6" long.

Draw Cuts work best in close range, subtract 1 from weapon reach when using this technique (reach 1, 2 becomes C, 1, etc...)

Calculate the Damage for a draw cut based on your weapons Cutting damage. If this cutting damage is usually Swing, us Thrust instead but add +1 (e.g. An Edged Rapier does Swing Cutting, so it's Draw Cut damage is Thrust +1 Cutting). Because of the length of the wound, draw cuts receive +2 to target Veins or Arteries.

If the blade is already in contact with the flesh, Draw Cuts are much easier to pull off. Therefore, if the Draw Cut is part of an All-Out-Attack (Double) or Rapid Strike where the preceding attack was a successful swing with the same weapon, Draw Cuts receive a +1 to their to hit roll.

Additionally Draw Cuts may be executed while using an Armed Grapple without releasing your opponent.

However, Draw Cuts gain Armor Divisor (.5) and can never do Blunt Trauma or Knockback. If using the "Edge Protection" rules from Low Tech, Draw Cuts do 0 damage if they don't penetrate the armor enough to do Cutting. GMs using harsh realism may rule that Draw Cuts are simply ineffective against armor with a DR greater than 1.

It's an awful lot of rules for one technique, but it's not the most complex GURPS technique.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by aesir23

If the blade is already in contact with the flesh, Draw Cuts are much easier to pull off. Therefore, if the Draw Cut is part of an All-Out-Attack (Double) or Rapid Strike where the preceding attack was a successful swing with the same weapon, Draw Cuts receive a +1 to their to hit roll.

It is obvious to us, but you may want to explicitly mention that this bonus only applies if you target the same area as that previous attack. Also, would you accept a drawcut following an impaling attack? Thrust in and then perform a 'tip cut' (I'm imagining two handed weapons here based on leverage)?