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Old 02-01-2011, 09:06 AM   #31
Purple Haze
 
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
I thought the daisho was the badge of honor, and that anyone could use katanas if they wanted to.
There were functionally four legelity classes in Japan:

- one blade of less than 12 inches
- one blade of less than 24 inches
- any number of blades each less than 28 inches (these are "samurai")
- any number of blades of any length

As the difference between 24 and 28 is not immediately apparent one carries two blades to show it.

For the same reason members of the ultimate class tend to carry a tachi rather than a katana. (Which may be an identical blade worn differently)
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:10 AM   #32
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze View Post
There were functionally four legelity classes in Japan:

- one blade of less than 12 inches
- one blade of less than 24 inches
- any number of blades each less than 28 inches (these are "samurai")
- any number of blades of any length

As the difference between 24 and 28 is not immediately apparent one carries two blades to show it.

For the same reason members of the ultimate class tend to carry a tachi rather than a katana. (Which may be an identical blade worn differently)
EDIT: Ok, in my hunt for information, the only thing I've found that supports your position is on wikipedia and has a big "citation needed" tag on it. Assuming its true (I've seen plenty of depictions of non-samurai with katana-length swords), this seems to be after the Sengoku era.
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Last edited by Mailanka; 02-01-2011 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:30 AM   #33
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
EDIT: Ok, in my hunt for information, the only thing I've found that supports your position is on wikipedia and has a big "citation needed" tag on it. Assuming its true (I've seen plenty of depictions of non-samurai with katana-length swords), this seems to be after the Sengoku era.
I was refering to the Edo (Tokugawa) 1603-1868.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:13 AM   #34
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by Bibiribobiri View Post
Is there any reason why i should choose a shortsword over a broadsword? (other than having a low ST or being $100 poorer)?

What are the advantages of the shortsword?

I think that, in hystory , it was used for very close range encounters or to fight in tight conditions (ex: a roman legion). But in gurps i dont know any rule that whould make it better than a broadsword for that.
Depends upon the campaign, actually. I've run campaigns where the longer sword, while providing better swing damage will, nonetheless get you hanged as a pretender to the nobility (in one campaign) or arrested, since there was a length limit in city on your weapon.

Broadswords weigh more, and, as someone pointed out, are frequently not your primary weapon due to the lack of penetration.

A lot of cheaper weapons will do a comparable amount of damage, and some of them do more, but keep the versatility there.

Consider using Defensive Attack with an axe, for example. And if you've got both hands on a single handed weapon like an axe you can (in my campaigns) squeak an additional bit of damage out when you decide to commit yourself to a massive blow.

I generally warn PC's about using longer weapons in close quarters, or situations where they know I'm going to punish them for their choices.

A two-handed sword on the deck of a ship with a lot of cables/ropes/wooden things all around is just begging for a low roll to hit snagging on something. Shortsword/cutlass might not have this issue.

My characters normally use a shortsword in circumstances where they may fight in tight quarters, or may need this as a defensive option. Pirate campaigns, for example, feature shortswords (cutlasses) for a reason. Shoot the enemy, pike the enemy. If they get close, pull your cutlass and defend yourself in close.

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Old 02-01-2011, 10:27 AM   #35
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
In the East, Straight swords were the primary weapon from the warring states period, well into the Yamato period(so, about 1700 years), before the Dao(a very tip heavy blade, like the falchion) or Katana became popular.

So again, I say this: the straight bladed sword, roughly 3 feet in length and around 2 pounds in length was widely used through-out most of the world for nearly 2000 years. If the curved sword was so superior, why then was it not more widely used, especially by civilizations that favored mounted combat(Goths, Vandals, Samartians, Gauls, Persians prior to the Turkic invasions...). Why is it that the curved blade doesn't show up widely untill the last thousand years of our history?
Mixing Chinese and Japanese names of historic periods while trying to define a period of time in "the East" is rather confusing, to say the least.

Chinese military swords changed from the double bladed "jian" (although the earlier ones would be "broadswords" in GURPS terms, not "jians") to "dao" in the Tang Dynasty (again, these "daos" would be "backswords", not the GURPS "dao"; welcome to the world of Chinese historical linguistics). The kind of falchion like GURPS daos appeared in the Song Dynasty, which is also around when the GURPS jian came into being (with slight differences, but probably not enough to qualify for different stats).

My guess for the reasons behind the switch from straight double bladed swords to backswords were probably a combination of influence from the Turkic nomads and the increasing proportion of cavalry in the Tang military.

The Song Dynasty and their many designs for dao (the many variants would be the equivalent of GURPS broadsword, bastard sword, dao and horsecutter) probably came about because of the increased chopping power the falchion design offered, which was much needed in fighting against the heavy cavalry of the Khitan and Manchurians (before they were called Manchurians).

As for the legality of katanas in Japan, the law restricting ownership of daisho to samurais was first legislated in 1588 during the sengoku period by the notorious Toyotomi Hideyoshi, but wasn't really enforced until the Edo period. Even then, the shogunate didn't go out of their way to confiscate weapons from peasants. As long as they didn't carry their katanas in public they were fine.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:32 AM   #36
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
May I ask you to quote the page? I'm not arguing, just asking for information. Thanks.
Pg 117, GURPS Martial Arts, Long Weapons in Close Combat.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:43 AM   #37
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
2) While a curved sword delivers less energy at the initial impact, the automatic redirection of the blade allows the holder to continue to add energy to the cut, dragging the blade across the target.
The mechanics of adding energy at that point are absolutely atrocious, it's not at all a good way to try and apply force. If there is an advantage, it's because a sliding cut is generally more effective against materials you can cut in the first place (i.e. targets with soft or no armor), though it's not clear how applicable that is to a sword blow.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:02 AM   #38
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Pg 117, GURPS Martial Arts, Long Weapons in Close Combat.
Thanks. Since the question was about "tight places or formations", I had other pictures in my mind, besides close combat.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:11 AM   #39
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by ismenis View Post
Mixing Chinese and Japanese names of historic periods while trying to define a period of time in "the East" is rather confusing, to say the least.
History is confusing. I was pointing out that the straight bladed, roughly 3' long and 2lb sword has over 2000 years of use in both east and west. The adoption of curved, balanced blades(as compared to curved, unbalanced blades) has been a relatively recent innovations

Quote:
As for the legality of katanas in Japan, the law restricting ownership of daisho to samurais was first legislated in 1588 during the sengoku period by the notorious Toyotomi Hideyoshi, but wasn't really enforced until the Edo period. Even then, the shogunate didn't go out of their way to confiscate weapons from peasants. As long as they didn't carry their katanas in public they were fine.
My source is Miyamoto Mushashi, whose writing indicates that the Katana has a cultural significance as the weapon of the Samurai class.

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Hold on, where does "Slashes better" translate into "is a better weapon?" The purpose of a jian is much the same as the purpose of a rapier: to stab the other guy, often with very long thrusts. Some traditions prefer hacking people, some prefer stabbing. Both have their advantages. I think it's perfectly reasonable to state that a curved blade "slashes better," but that you'll stick with a straight sword "because you prefer impaling damage."
First, the Jian is a class of weapons that covers a wide variety of swords. Most would, if stripped of their furniture, be considered "broadswords" of the European fashion, not Rapiers. I don't think it's perfectly reasonable to say that "curved swords cut better" against armored or unarmored opponents: if this was the case, why do we not see european swords of the early period made with curves? The thrust became more important later on, and we can observe the change in blade typology(distal tips, narrower blades, larger pommels, thumb rings: all things that help to improve the balance of the one handed thrust)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
1) When a sword is swung well at a person or thing, the impact on a straight sword will be normal (as in "right angle") to the blade, maximizing the amount of energy delivered to the target but also producing the greatest "jar" at the grip. Conversely, a curved sword will impact at an oblique angle, reducing the energy transfer but also dramatically reducing the difficulty in holding the sword. In infantry combat this is a small issue, but in mounted combat you are already delivering more than adequate power to the cut and a straight sword is far more likely to get jarred out of your grasp. This is why so many cavalries ended up using curved swords even when no one else in their culture did.
I don't really believe this: straight blades have been fairly common amongst cavalry for a long time. I honestly think there may be some minor advantage, and also the cultural implications of adopting the methods of the "turkic" horsemen who were very well regarded. Consider, for example, that most of the Cavalry imagery we know of from the 18th century is of eastern European origin

Quote:
2) While a curved sword delivers less energy at the initial impact, the automatic redirection of the blade allows the holder to continue to add energy to the cut, dragging the blade across the target. While this is just about useless against an armored target, against an unarmored target this allows for long and still deep cuts that have a chance to impact more muscles and organs. This is why so many cultures that used no (or minimal) armor favored curved swords.
Again, I don't like this. The Turkic peoples who introduced the curved sword "scimitar" type sword to the middle-east, and likely the west, were not unarmored, or lightly armored. The majority of them may have been poorly armored, but such is a similar truth for contemporary europe.

Again, if Curved swords were so widely effective, then why do we not see a wider adoption of them? Why is the most common blade design the straight blade?
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:26 AM   #40
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Default Re: shortsword vs broadsword

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
First, the Jian is a class of weapons that covers a wide variety of swords. Most would, if stripped of their furniture, be considered "broadswords" of the European fashion, not Rapiers. I don't think it's perfectly reasonable to say that "curved swords cut better" against armored or unarmored opponents: if this was the case, why do we not see european swords of the early period made with curves? The thrust became more important later on, and we can observe the change in blade typology(distal tips, narrower blades, larger pommels, thumb rings: all things that help to improve the balance of the one handed thrust)
Most jians I've seen are much lighter than a broadsword, but in any case, that's not what's important: my point is that a jian is a thrusting sword. If you told the Chinese swords cut better, they'd look at you and say "Ok, but that's not really the point."

Tips reach your opponent faster (hence the point of the rapier) than a cut. Tips are better at penetrating armor (by attacking chinks) than cuts do. Tips can attack vitals better than cuts do.

You argue that if curved swords cut better, everyone would use them, and thus, that can't be true since Europeans and Chinese used straight swords. Setting aside your assumption that everyone adopts weapons based solely on efficiency, Europeans and Chinese didn't design straight swords because they cut better, they designed them because they thrust better.

Most "chopping" swords and knives I've seen have some kind of curve to them: It's hardly controversial to argue that they're superior for cutting. What I find strange is that you're trying to suggest that people used straight swords primarily for cutting, and that a weapons ability to cutting would determine whether or not it would be adopted.

EDIT: As for earlier blades, the Romans had thrusting swords and greatly believed in the thrust. No doubt the early europeans used similar weapons because they were influenced by roman tradition, and also because (I suspect) straight blades are easier to craft than curved blades). It also occurs to me that your argument, turned around, doesn't make any sense either. If curved blades aren't better for some things, then why did those cultures go out of their way to make them?
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Last edited by Mailanka; 02-01-2011 at 11:35 AM.
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