Increasing Fatigue?

[timm meyers]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

So now that we have the basic rule defined, I'd like some input around the costs for various actions and activities. I'll start with a few rough ideas for combat...

• HTH (i.e. grappling) should be the most taxing, I think - 1 fatigue per turn
• Melee combat gets harder over time, but assuming characters have proficiency, I don't think fatigue should kick in right away - 1 point per turn after 5 turns (or maybe 1/2 ST in turns rounded down)
• Ranged combat is still tiring, obviously, but it probably shouldn't be as bad as melee - not sure about the cost, though
• Sweeping blows should have their own cost - 2 fatigue per attempt
• Shield rush - 3 fatigue

Thoughts? Too high?

Tracking fatigue within RAW to simulate the cost and effect when casting is a valid complication and relatively noninvasive.
Your idea to redefine the process of magic from a "reservoir" of ST to one of a "capacity" to channel/direct magic ST is brilliant. You retain the original mechanics in regard to record keeping but solve many of the associated self-inflicted wound anomalies many struggle with.
However, if the concept then requires for the fatigue track to be applied universally to the warrior PC and thus additional rules and costs for actions undermines imho the elegance of your proposal. (end editorial)

Fatigue costs for actions?

Full moves ie. sprinting - 1 fatigue
Understrength weapon use -1 fatigue per 1 ST below weapon requirement
Does the use of acrobatics or unique weapon effects such as lasso (tug of war) or net/rope spell (struggling to escape) require penelties in your system?

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Shield-rushing is already a dubious action, since the target gets a saving roll, so nerfing it with 3 fatigue strikes me as both unrealistic and undesirable.

Needing to keep track of turns in groups of 5 to add fatigue seems way too easy to forget.

Sweeping blows are rare, in my experience, and often ineffective due to the DX penalty involved. Again, I’m not sure that imposing a fatigue penalty is desirable.

Remember, fatigue won't be in competition with ST using this idea so a character w/o spells should have a pretty decent pool for these kinds of shenanigans. I'm not convinced adding a physical cost for special maneuvers would have any effect on their use, but I will concede that my initial estimates may be high.

That's not to say, however, that some of them (Shield Rush in particular) couldn't also use an overhaul.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by timm meyers

Your idea to redefine the process of magic from a "reservoir" of ST to one of a "capacity" to channel/direct magic ST is brilliant. You retain the original mechanics in regard to record keeping but solve many of the associated self-inflicted wound anomalies many struggle with.

However, if the concept then requires for the fatigue track to be applied universally to the warrior PC and thus additional rules and costs for actions undermines imho the elegance of your proposal. (end editorial)

Thanks Timm. I really appreciate the feedback (and the praise), but my intention was never to simply shift the power for spellcasting "off the books" from ST. I still want there to be a choice, something that makes fatigue relevant for both character paths. The challenge will be keeping it simple. I'm not looking to add more bookkeeping to TFT (though a little more is probably unavoidable w/ this idea).

Originally Posted by timm meyers

Full moves ie. sprinting - 1 fatigue
Understrength weapon use -1 fatigue per 1 ST below weapon requirement

Does the use of acrobatics or unique weapon effects such as lasso (tug of war) or net/rope spell (struggling to escape) require penelties in your system?

I like these. I haven't considered how this idea might apply to the other use-cases mentioned, but since I started this thread my thinking has shifted slightly... I don't think generating fatigue for 'normal' actions is the way to go. It should be a consequence of pushing oneself beyond normal limits. I have to remember that physical efforts have to be balanced against magic, after all, so anything a hero does to create fatigue needs to have a measurable in-game benefit (preferably balanced against spells with the same cost).

[Steve Plambeck]

I see possibilities here for assessing what for lack of a better word I'll call "environmental" fatigue. For instance, charging everyone in the party x amount of fatigue for a long march, or a day finding their way out of the woods, crossing rough terrain, getting over a mountain, or just a walk to the next town in oppressive heat or freezing cold. Then how the party might react to different situations and encounters could be informed by how exhausted they are feeling. Shouldn't we fight these goblins we outnumber? Maybe not if we all have 6 fatigue already. Should we keep going and reach our destination too tired to defend ourselves if there's a fight, or should we rest a couple hours before we go on? Our wizard says he's too tired to cast any spells tonight, let's not enter that labyrinth until tomorrow.

More of a role-playing aspect to the whole matter.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

So now that we have the basic rule defined, I'd like some input around the costs for various actions and activities. I'll start with a few rough ideas for combat...

• HTH (i.e. grappling) should be the most taxing, I think - 1 fatigue per turn
• Melee combat gets harder over time, but assuming characters have proficiency, I don't think fatigue should kick in right away - 1 point per turn after 5 turns (or maybe 1/2 ST in turns rounded down)
• Ranged combat is still tiring, obviously, but it probably shouldn't be as bad as melee - not sure about the cost, though
• Sweeping blows should have their own cost - 2 fatigue per attempt
• Shield rush - 3 fatigue

Make all the fatigue for these activities cost 1 point fST (fatigue). But they only take this fatigue if they fail an ST savings roll.

This will cut down keeping track of the fatigue.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

Make all the fatigue for these activities cost 1 point fST (fatigue). But they only take this fatigue if they fail an ST savings roll.

This will cut down keeping track of the fatigue.

Interesting. I am looking for more ST rolls.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

The only part it doesn't address is that old trope, Conan the Wizard. As long as spell costs are paid for by ST, higher ST makes for a more powerful wizard (the unwanted side-effect being they can also bench press 400 lbs - LOL!) But that's an issue that can be tweaked by other means, and no reason not to use your fine proposal. I really like the ability to apply fatigue costs to all the things you mentioned, and I'd add tackling a big flight of stairs to that list.

I handled the old trope, Conan the Wizard by envisioning what my wizard was likely to be like. Was he slightly above the normal bell-curve srength? Then make the character ST=11. If I wanted to grow my wizard more psychically powerful, let him continue up, but split the ST; say ST=11/15. Any hand weapon the character used could only go up to ST=11. But the wizard had the psychic endurance at 15.

I would still use the Legacy RAW of 11 damage will kill and a combination of fST and damage achieving 11 would kill, but the character would get 4 fST (15 - 11 = 4) that it could burn before reaching death. In other words, burn the over amount of psychic energy before it starts affecting death.

-----------------------------
Not part of this original post but pertinent is IQ.

If you imagine your character to be slightly higher IQ than the norm, you could make him IQ=11. He could start out learning 11 points of talents/spells. If I wanted to grow my character more mentally powerful, but still the average Joe, let him continue XPing up, but split the IQ; say IQ=11/15. This would allow the character to learn higher talents (by paying for them), but still maintain that slightly above average perception/learning ability. This goes for perception rolls at IQ=11. You could learn up to IQ 15 level talents, but you perform them at IQ=11.

I've applied this to my Dumb Fighter who started with IQ=8. He was a Forrest Gump type. So when I raised his IQ up to learn better weapon talents, I did a split and kept his rolls at IQ=8. At IQ=9/12 (I did raise his base up one point), he still missed many disbelieves and observations, but he was able to learn to use some appropriate higher talents like TOUGHNESS or Shield Expertise.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

Make all the fatigue for these activities cost 1 point fST (fatigue). But they only take this fatigue if they fail an ST savings roll. This will cut down keeping track of the fatigue.

But it greatly increases the number of dice which must be rolled, which is at least as bad.

One of my criteria was no extra dice. The fatigue cost is inferred from the action or from the result of a die which was being rolled anyway.