Why do Priests exist?

[platimus]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

You're absolutely right (though one could argue that his berserker strength is faith-driven), but I wasn't referring to his powers. Rather I was referring to the fact that his 'adventuring' started after he left the priesthood which would be difficult using your model requiring a character to acquire priestly training later in their career. Sorry if wasn't clear about that (its still a good idea, though).

Still no problem. SK as we know him didn't magically spring forth from the mind of Zeus. If you really want to play out SK's earlier, less adventurous life, you are free to do so. You can still have a SK-type character without the Priest talent. If you're creating him as an NPC with more experience under his belt than a beginning character, still no problem.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by hcobb

My answer is that the undead problem is obvious and the priests are doing something to keep the problem managed, but are unable to prove that any gods exist.

If pressed wizards will grudgingly admit that priests are using magic that is specialized for dealing with ghosts.

Unfortunately, the undead problem is not obvious to me. But some sub-cults/orders/sects of religions may be teaching spells to their acolytes and priests that are useful for dealing with the undead. Of course, if this has been going on for some time, the Wizards have undoubtedly discovered these spells as well. Or it seems more likely that the Wizards came up with these spells first and some of those wizards formed the founding members of these sub-cults/orders/sects.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Skarg

That too is mostly a Christian orientation, though, and even many/most Christian clergy aren't missionaries (nor exorcists, nor undead-banishers, nor magic healers).

In our world most wizards can't use magic and most people don't have magic items, so I don't think talking about "many/most" people with respect to magical capabilities is valid (no offense intended if you're reading this, Alan Moore)...

[warhorse11h]

I think we all may be missing something important about these discussions, particularly when discussing religions we have here, ie Christianity. In ITL, there is a suggestion to model it on the Catholic church of the Middle Ages or Reformation. True enough, but it lacks something. Near as I can tell, based upon the limited information in ITL, the Christians who were brought to Cidri have been dead for several centuries. In the absence of their headquarters, the Vatican, and in the presence of Mnoren rulers with magical and technological advances and in a world where magic is both real and present, what changes might that have had on the faith and the role of its priests and holy chivalric orders. Now throw in the thought that the Mnoren or some other group, possibly the Wizards Guild or some other agency, decided to tamper with them and turn their focus toward certain abilities. Maybe the wizards realized that certain creatures, among them the Undead, might become a real threat and what could be a better joke than to turn those pious, self righteous Christians into an order of military clerics and fighters and let them do most of the dying.

Just a thought.

[jason taylor]

I should say that you have to make the religion before saying why priests exist. It seems to me that Catholic priests exist to conduct rites that they are distinctly authorized to perform. Jews do not have priests anymore because they do not perform sacrifices anymore and perhaps the closest equiv among them is the corporate authority of a Minyan.

In fact as Mass is a mystical or symbolic (depending on who you ask) sacrifice, arguably the purpose of priests is to preside over sacrifices.

A lot of the problem too is that anthropologists tend to transliterate into familiar terms when talking of religion. I am not sure you can really say Buddhists have Monks. Only that they have contemplative confraternities strikingly similar to monks.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

I think we all may be missing something important about these discussions, particularly when discussing religions we have here, ie Christianity. In ITL, there is a suggestion to model it on the Catholic church of the Middle Ages or Reformation. True enough, but it lacks something. Near as I can tell, based upon the limited information in ITL, the Christians who were brought to Cidri have been dead for several centuries. In the absence of their headquarters, the Vatican, and in the presence of Mnoren rulers with magical and technological advances and in a world where magic is both real and present, what changes might that have had on the faith and the role of its priests and holy chivalric orders?

And for me, this is just one of several arguments against using real-world religions in TFT.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

You're absolutely right (though one could argue that his berserker strength is faith-driven), but I wasn't referring to his powers. Rather I was referring to the fact that his 'adventuring' started after he left the priesthood which would be difficult using your model requiring a character to acquire priestly training later in their career. Sorry if wasn't clear about that (its still a good idea, though).

When I create a character, I envision what I want it to be and mold the selections around that. If I think that Joe will be a Priest, I will buy that regardless of what benefit it will bring.

I guess what I see as the problem here is the expectations of the Talent Entry. If Priest and Theologian were placed under the Mundane Talent heading, I think there would be lower expectations of what it would do. But because it is in the broader Talent entry that give other talents specific mechanical benefits, players are expecting more.

Originally Posted by Skarg

Why should all talents provide some clear in-game benefit?

To me, the purpose of talents such as Priest and Courtly Graces and is to represent something that exists in the game world in an appropriate and accurate way. Some talents are useful for their domain, which is not the domain of most adventurers, and that is appropriate.

There are plenty of advantages to being a priest, even if there are zero magic powers that come with it. They're just socio-economic and specific to the game setting and specific religion, etc. In medieval Europe, being a priest is an awesome advantage, if used appropriately, because it makes you a respected social class and authority, all sorts of people will listen to you and protect you and give you all sorts of things. If you have the job that tends to come with Theologian, you're all set, with plenty of power of income and status.

Although, really those are jobs more than they are talents, and perhaps that's an issue with my talent list, although I do think there should be professional talents to represent competent people who have learned to do those jobs well. That is, in real medieval Europe it's not hard to find many examples of people who were priests, monks, nuns, bishops and even some popes who did not have the appropriate talents for the job.

I think that the Mundane advantage one gets out of priest is the social institution as Skarg mentions. You have the equivalent of a multi-national corporation that speaks a common language, provides hospitality to its members, provides for their member's upkeep & gives a direction in life. Often times it offers a life the standards of which the individual could not attain normally. In some cases the medieval or renaissance priest could indulge their philosophical or educational bent and become something more on their own time. And, of course, you get to delve into a spiritual insight farther than others do.

Perhaps the reason that Priest and Theologian were placed under the regular Talents with the comment of the GM could make religion 'effective' is to give the GM the idea that he could manipulate his game that way if he wanted to.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

I think we all may be missing something important about these discussions, particularly when discussing religions we have here, ie Christianity. In ITL, there is a suggestion to model it on the Catholic church of the Middle Ages or Reformation. True enough, but it lacks something. Near as I can tell, based upon the limited information in ITL, the Christians who were brought to Cidri have been dead for several centuries. In the absence of their headquarters, the Vatican, and in the presence of Mnoren rulers with magical and technological advances and in a world where magic is both real and present, what changes might that have had on the faith and the role of its priests and holy chivalric orders. Now throw in the thought that the Mnoren or some other group, possibly the Wizards Guild or some other agency, decided to tamper with them and turn their focus toward certain abilities. Maybe the wizards realized that certain creatures, among them the Undead, might become a real threat and what could be a better joke than to turn those pious, self righteous Christians into an order of military clerics and fighters and let them do most of the dying.

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

And for me, this is just one of several arguments against using real-world religions in TFT.

You guys should look up some books by Katherine Kurtz; you might be amazed...

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by JLV

You guys should look up some books by Katherine Kurtz; you might be amazed...

Yeah, but there's a difference between using religion with obvious real-world influences and parallels vs. trying to stick an actual real-world religion into a fantasy setting. Never could understand SJ's reasoning for that.

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by JLV

You guys should look up some books by Katherine Kurtz; you might be amazed...

I actually have read them. Perhaps not all, but enough. I found the Deryni to be a very interesting concept. And I also know that she did a good job of translating the Catholic church to a fantasy setting complete with magical orders of clergy.

I am actually working toward the use of those ideas to introduce a religious fighter and priest that are part of an effective religion, in game terms. This is an idea that is heresy to many on these forums. Others have been making their own attempts to resolve the issue. My last post simply was an attempt to say that whatever your, my or anyone else's opinion, the Christian (Catholic) religion that was transplanted to Cidri has had several hundred years of isolation to mutate into a new form more suitable to its environment.