Alternate history - What could tech 3 Gaul look like?

[Mediolanum]

The point of divergence is that carthage and other punic cities in africa were destroyed by the numidians. Rome never expanded outside Italy and had little interest in it. Consequently, Gaul was never conquered and remained independent. Rough idea was that a tribe unites gaul, conquers Spain and England and builds an empire. Then it balkanizes after after several centuries into smaller kingdoms and republics.

Now I have problems forming the society. Feudal like the germanic kingdoms in our history or completely different? I am also uncertain about clothing, equipment and architecture.

[Celjabba]

Iirc, there was one of P. Anderson Time Patrol stories on a similar basis. May be a source of inspiration for names and esthetics ?

Edit : it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delenda_Est , and not exactly similar.

[Icelander]

Given how advanced Greek, Roman and many other Mediterranean societies of 3rd century BCE to 3rd century CE were compared to the TL2 Iron Age societies like the Assyrians or Hittites or even proto-Celts from the 8th century BCE, I'd say that Gaul of Caesar's time was arguably TL3, just as Rome was arguably TL3 at that time.

Even if we are content to have Cicero's Rome occupy the same TL as the earliest Villanovan culture in Italy, almost a millenia older and much less sophisticated in every aspect of technology, at the very least, we have to accept that at the height of large-scale Mediterranean trade during the Roman era, there were lots of places with extremely advanced TL2, ill-distinguishable from TL3.

So, the answer is that Gaul at TL3 would be a slightly richer, more prosperous Gaul than a TL2 Gaul, with higher acricultural yields due to better acricultural technology. Same weapons and armour, albeit in slightly greater numbers, as with all metallic tools, same society, more or less, etc.

[AlexanderHowl]

No, I would disagree, Republican Romans were not early-TL3 by the definitions of GURPS (in fact, I would argue that the GURPS TL system was specifically designed to keep Republican Rome at late-TL2). The point of divergence does not make sense though as the character of Rome meant that it would expand until it conquered everything or suffered destruction, so a more logical divergence would involve the Gauls or the Italians destroying Rome before Rome became dominant. Of course, without the Romans to delay the German migrations, the Germans would have conquered Gaul in the 1st century BC (though it could be argued that the Gauls might have been stronger had the Romans not periodically destroyed their leadership through punitive raids before the conquest of Gaul).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

No, I would disagree, Republican Romans were not early-TL3 by the definitions of GURPS (in fact, I would argue that the GURPS TL system was specifically designed to keep Republican Rome at late-TL2). The point of divergence does not make sense though as the character of Rome meant that it would expand until it conquered everything or suffered destruction, so a more logical divergence would involve the Gauls or the Italians destroying Rome before Rome became dominant. Of course, without the Romans to delay the German migrations, the Germans would have conquered Gaul in the 1st century BC (though it could be argued that the Gauls might have been stronger had the Romans not periodically destroyed their leadership through punitive raids before the conquest of Gaul).

The simplistic cut-off dates given for TLs in GURPS should not be read to imply that TLs progress in an inexorable forward march toward our glorious selves.

In almost every meaningful way, Roman society of the Late Republican and Early Imperial eras provides adventurers with access to similar or better technology, not to mention more starting wealth on average, than most of Europe for about a millenia.

Tech Levels aren't just about inventions, they are also about having the social infrastructure to support a higher TL society. A cohesive Roman republic/empire which can meaningfully describe the Meditarrenean as 'Mare Nostrum' has infrastructure which supports the better economy, better archictecture, better transport, better military-industrial complex and better medical services than such 'TL3' polities as a small Saxon kingdom of the 8th century or a cluster of 10th century farms in Iceland.

Being cut-off from the larger trade network can leave places languishing behind in TL while other places advance and destructive warfare combined with isolation can even cause TL to drop back down, though usually not more than one level, absent a total catastrophe.

[ericthered]

The big differences I can see:

The language of Gaul links it to the British isles and northern Spain, not to Italy. These will be different nations, but still a culture group that interacts and intermarries.

The religion will be different. I don't know enough to say what it will be. probably not Christianity, and less certainly not the greek pantheon, though that's more likely.

The political structure will probably look like that of ancient scotland and ireland, though I may be mistaken in that.

[Rasna]

Regarding equipment, an hypotetical TL3 Gaulish army would have some significant differences with a historical TL2 one. The problem is: what kind of TL3? High Medieval, Low Medieval, Late Medieval?

In this answer I won't consider the late.

- Helmets: probably similar to Gaul, German and Roman archetipes, but iron replaces bronze as material of choice.

- Body armour: principally mail (light, fine and heavy, in GURPS terms) and greaves (in TL3, as helmets, iron would replace bronze and some of them, imported via Germany and Scandinavia, could be of splinted construction [Medium-Heavy Hardened Leather or Medium Layered Cloth, with the Reinforced option]). In a TL3 setting, mail wouldn't be restricted only to aristocracy and its followers, but would be worn by broader groups of professional or semi-professional warriors (Lorica Hamata is reputed to be a Gaulish invention, but the vastly large mayority of historical Gaulish warriors fought without no protection other the shield); the TL2 lorica hamata (a mail shirt which protect torso and shoulders) would be replaced with haubergeons (mail shirt with full-lenght sleeves) and hauberks (mail shirt with sleeves, which extends down to the thighs or knees), and sometimes combined with scale/lamellar corselets or, more commonly, with gambesons thicker than the Roman thoromacus or subarmalis (treat them as Padded Cloth or Light Layered Cloth, which in a TL3 setting could be sometimes worn as standalone armor by poorer fighters but NOT by the peasant levies, who are completely unarmoured). Mail socks, chausses and hoses appear at TL3, also (they already existed in TL2 - they were sometimes worn by Roman, Eastern Roman, Parthian and Sassanid cataphracts - but not in Gaul).

- Weapons: TL3 adds some heavy polearms (very helpful against the now more numerous armoured foes) and siege weapons. Javelin and slings remain in usage, but warbows (longbows, eastern composite bows) and crossbow take almost surely more ground. Historical fonts report that gaulish straight broadswords often lack the point and sometimes bend after heavy blows, but with TL3 metallurgy, Broadswords should be replaced en masse with properly Thrusting Broadswords.

- Cavalry: stirrup from the steppes and medieval war saddles (altough four-horned saddles are already good for mounted shock tactics). The light war chariot would be completely discarded and Gaulish cavalry would become true heavy shock cavalry armed with long lances, like cataphracts or Norman knights, or medium cavalry armed with javelins, like most of historical Carolingian knights.

- Organization: that's harder to figure. If you exclude Roman domination over Gaul, Gaulish armies can have some elements taken from their neighbours (Romans, Germans, Iberians) mixed with historical original ones and other that they could have developed indipendently. IMO: being famous in antiquity for the quality of their horsemen, they will have effective medium and heavy cavalry accompained with some professional infantry and large number of feudal or tribal levies, with some Roman, German, Iberian and Scandinavian well-paid mercenaries as elite or support units. But this depends also in what political way Gauls would be organized. This example could apply for a large feudal army.

[sir_pudding]

Gaelic society survived until the 18th century, and from the examples in the Highlands, Hebrides and Ireland make a pan-Gaelic European empire pretty implausible. They couldn't unify even Ireland or the Highlands against persistent existential threats for nearly 2000 years. The idea of pan-Gaelic unity wasn't even developed until the 16th century and never really caught on (even in the 20th century sectarian conflict overrode revived Gaelic national unity).

Gaelic Europe would, I think, be tribal with thousands of tiny kingdoms.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Gaelic society survived until the 18th century, and from the examples in the Highlands, Hebrides and Ireland make a pan-Gaelic European empire pretty implausible. They couldn't unify even Ireland or the Highlands against persistent existential threats for nearly 2000 years. The idea of pan-Gaelic unity wasn't even developed until the 16th century and never really caught on (even in the 20th century sectarian conflict overrode revived Gaelic national unity).

Gaelic Europe would, I think, be tribal with thousands of tiny kingdoms.

The only two exception that come in my mind are Vercingetorix and Boudicca, but only in the optics of fighting a mayor overwhelming threath (Romans in both cases, and only when is too late).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rasna

- Helmets: probably similar to Gaul, German and Roman archetipes, but iron replaces bronze as material of choice.

TL2 Roman and Gallic helmets were already usually made from iron or steel.

Originally Posted by Rasna

- Body armour: principally mail (light, fine and heavy, in GURPS terms) and greaves (in TL3, as helmets, iron would replace bronze and

Bronze is for contoured officers' breastplates and other ceremonial gear. During the Late Republic and Early Empire, Roman (and neighbouring) military armour is usually made from iron/steel, if it is made from metal at all.

Originally Posted by Rasna

In a TL3 setting, mail wouldn't be restricted only to aristocracy and its followers, but would be worn by broader groups of professional or semi-professional warriors (Lorica Hamata is reputed to be a Gaulish invention, but the vastly large mayority of historical Gaulish warriors fought without no protection other the shield);

The difference would be in the Wealth difference between TL2 $750 and TL3 $1,000 Starting Wealth. About a third wealthier, on average, so about that many more could afford the arms of a warrior.

Originally Posted by Rasna

Historical fonts report that gaulish straight broadswords often lack the point and sometimes bend after heavy blows, but with TL3 metallurgy, Broadswords should be replaced en masse with properly Thrusting Broadswords.

Thrusting Broadswords were the norm in Gaul, as elsewhere. And I'm not aware that metallurgy improved in any significant way in Europe after 600 CE over Roman or Gallic metallurgy around the 1st century BCE.

As far as I know, there were no new craft secrets introduced by blacksmiths of the post-Migration Era Europe. Good smiths using good materials could make good swords, less qualified ones or ones using inferior materials, would make rubbish ones.* If anything, lack of logistical infrastructure after the decline of the Roman Empire meant that fewer places had access to high-quality coal and iron, with consequent effects on the quality of manufacture there.

*Like a lot of Icelandic swords, made from inferior bog iron.

Originally Posted by Rasna

The light war chariot would be completely discarded

As it already had been from Gaul, centuries before Caesar ever came there. Gallic allies fighting with the Romans in Britain were probably equally mystified as the common legionaries to see military equipment out of Homer's poems used on the battlefield.

Originally Posted by Rasna

and Gaulish cavalry would become true heavy shock cavalry armed with long lances, like cataphracts or Norman knights, or medium cavalry armed with javelins, like most of historical Carolingian knights.

Aedui and Remi cavalry, to name examples, were already equipped as heavy cavalry. They had mail, spears and swords.

What they do not appear to have had was a tactical tradition of fighting as shock cavalry. That, however, is not an inevitable corollary of TL3+, but represents a difference in martial culture. There have been TL3 cultures without shock cavalry, just as there have been TL2 cultures with it.

Caesar's German cavalry were not equipped any differently than his Gallic cavalry. If anything, they might have had lighter equipment, if only because of the generally poorer economies over the Rhine. They do appear, however, to have taken to shock cavalry tactics with gusto.