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Old 07-08-2008, 09:07 AM   #11
enpeze
 
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by robkelk
Looking at this list, I have one reaction:

If I wanted to play D&D, I'd buy and play D&D.
Why not having the classical dungeon crawl roleplaying style with a good rule system instead of a mediocre one?
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:09 AM   #12
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
But GURPS Dungeon Fantasy throws away some of the best features of GURPS, by making templates mandatory and putting other similar restraints on character advancement.
Since there's so much disagreement going on :) I'll add mine. My understanding is that the templates are suggestions. Check DF1 again. I'm pretty sure it allows for more freedom in creating characters, beyond the templates.
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

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Originally Posted by tjbuege
Since there's so much disagreement going on :) I'll add mine. My understanding is that the templates are suggestions. Check DF1 again. I'm pretty sure it allows for more freedom in creating characters, beyond the templates.
ISTR that the PDF's text recommends to the GM that he uses the templates as straitjackets. That they not be optional (recipes, helpful suggestions), but mandatory, and that they continue to have an effect after gamestat, in that they limit character advancement.
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:20 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

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Originally Posted by robertsconley
I agree somewhat.

The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy should not be a D&D emulator. That would be a mistake. The default presentation should be the GURPS style.

There should be three major options in the Character Creation section

1) The default templates used for 150 pt characters.

2) The low point template used for realistic NPCs or low powered campaigns.

3) The DF 250 pt templates for D&D style high fantasy. Also useful for the making the Big Bad.

Probably #1 and #3 can be combined somewhat if space is tight. I.e. here what you normally use. The next paragraph would have the options for 250 points.
That doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote about GURPS DF using templates as character creation/advancement straitjackets, instead of as that which they should be, which are friendly recipes that each player is free to choose to use or not use.

As for your "tiers suggestion", there could just be a basic template for each archetype, and then a series of lenses. "1st Power-Up", "2nd Power-Up" and so forth. Going with your suggestions, 75 CPs for the basic template, 75 CPs for the first lens and 100 CP for the second lens.

Although it would probably be simpler to go with 150 for the base template, and then have one +100 CP positive "Power-Up" lense, and one or more "subtractive lenses" which tells you what to lower or remove and therefore each such lens has a negative point cost. That way, if you start at the lowest power level, the subtractive lenses can function as helpful character advancement advice.
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:26 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
ISTR that the PDF's text recommends to the GM that he uses the templates as straitjackets. That they not be optional (recipes, helpful suggestions), but mandatory, and that they continue to have an effect after gamestat, in that they limit character advancement.
To quote DF:

"Dungeon fantasy works best if every PC fills a distinct niche. The GM can reinforce this by making template mandatory--contrary to what every other GURPS supplement says. ... The players can pillage the templates and notes for ideas even if the GM lets them create PCs from scratch." DF1, pg4

DF recommends using the templates as mandatory...but clearly the option remains not to, I just don't see it as any more limiting than any other of the setting books.
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:28 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

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Originally Posted by trooper6
To quote DF:

"Dungeon fantasy works best if every PC fills a distinct niche. The GM can reinforce this by making template mandatory--contrary to what every other GURPS supplement says. ... The players can pillage the templates and notes for ideas even if the GM lets them create PCs from scratch." DF1, pg4

DF recommends using the templates as mandatory...but clearly the option remains not to, I just don't see it as any more limiting than any other of the setting books.
The choice is given to the GM, and if he fails to take that opportunity, there is no non-metagame niche protection.

What we're loking at is a lose-lose situation.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:20 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
The choice is given to the GM, and if he fails to take that opportunity, there is no non-metagame niche protection.

What we're loking at is a lose-lose situation.

That's awfully bleak.

I don't enforce the use of templates in any of the games I run (sometimes I enforce players meeting job requirements) and really I've not had lots of trouble. I think the niche protection thing is a little overemphasized. You have lots a brilliant scientists? Make adventures that call for lots of brilliant scientists. There doesn't have to be niche protection for a game to work. In the D&D game I'm in, we have two fighters...are they both useless because they fulfill the same niche? We have a Druid, a Cleric and a Bard...all of whom can heal...will our game suffer because we don't have only one healer who can be so happy in their niche? Heck no!

I also don't see how DF is different than other GURPS genres. In other GURPS genres you can use templates or not. You could use templates only for the beginning and then let people do what they want. You could use templates and only let the spend cp on what's in the template. You could let people only spend cps on things they used in game (regardless of if they're using templates or not). We are not in a binary situation here where both ends of the binary are lose-lose. There are many options. Flavor to taste.

I tend to limit cp expenditure to things that were used in game (or that the players has stated their PC is studying in the downtime). What this means that unless you use it...you aren't getting the skill. But this also means that it is entirely possible that everybody will pick up the stealth skill...not just the "stealthy" character...or the Survival(Forest) skill, not just the ranger. It this happens, it is because everybody in the party needs it for the party to function. In the last game I ran...we had 5 players. 3 of which had social skills. Was this a problem? No. They were all different personalities and did things in different ways. Then the pilot picked up Diplomacy. Where the other three players with social skills frustrated and upset about their niche being encroached upon? No! They were thrilled...because the pilot's total lack of social skills messed them up on numerous occasions. With a little diplomacy it was hoped that the rest of the party would have to bail him out less (turned out not to be the case). There is nothing from stopping a GM from saying only spend points on what you used in DF. Or whatever else they decide to come up with.

You say without enforcing templates DF gives you no non-metagame niche protection. What sort of non-meta game niche protection do you have in your non-DF GURPS game? The idea of niche protection is a metagame concept in the first place. I can't see any way to enforce what is basically a metagame concept without using meta game means.
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Old 07-08-2008, 01:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

There's a whole chapter in DF1 about the apropriate traits for DF games, just in case you don't want to use templates...
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Old 07-08-2008, 01:38 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima
There's a whole chapter in DF1 about the apropriate traits for DF games, just in case you don't want to use templates...
Yep, that's what I was referring to in my earlier post.
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:18 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
The choice is given to the GM, and if he fails to take that opportunity, there is no non-metagame niche protection.

What we're loking at is a lose-lose situation.
Note that this was brought up because you said that "GURPS Dungeon Fantasy throws away some of the best features of GURPS, by making templates mandatory and putting other similar restraints on character advancement". The opening text in the templates chapter clearly spells out that it's optional and doesn't make it mandatory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dungeon Fantasy 1, page 4
Dungeon fantasy works best if every PC fills a distinct niche. The GM can reinforce this by making templates mandatory – contrary to what every other GURPS supplement says. To make up for this restriction, he should let delvers spend earned points to acquire anything on their template, including advantages that can’t normally be bought in play and skills that require special training.
Notice that it says the GM _can_ make them mandatory, and if so the PCs get a special training benefit that normally they don't have access to.

I don't even remotely see how this can be seen as a lose-lose situation, but everyone's mileage clearly varies. Personally, I'm pretty happy the option exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
It would be so much better, inifinitely better, if niche protection was an emergent feature of the rules system, rather than something that needs to be artificially imposed on the metagame level.
Care to describe in detail what an emergent feature of the rules system that isn't artifically imposing something on the metagame level would look like?
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