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Old 12-14-2022, 11:45 AM   #71
sjmdw45
 
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Default Re: Thieves

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
Thieves and swashbucklers are of an ilk to begin with (both DX-heavy light fighters, and both equally "rogues" in some games). Similarities & overlap are inevitable.
Y'know, the main difference between Thieves and Swashbucklers is that Thieves put 60 points in IQ whereas Swashbucklers put those points in combat advantages and skills. And yet, Swashbucklers are the ones who get access to Rapier Wit, which relies on IQ (via Will/Intimidation).

If DF Thieves could buy Rapier Wit they would be pretty decent, even if nothing else on their template changed. I'm not sure it's idiomatic, but if you view Peter Quill in Guardians of the Galaxy as a Thief, his dance-off at the end of the movie is sort of similar to Rapier Wit both thematically and in mechanical effect: Ronan stares at him in disbelief for several seconds before resuming his evil plan.
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Old 12-14-2022, 02:29 PM   #72
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Default Re: Thieves

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Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
You're right there in front of them...
"In Plain View" gives a penalty, it doesn't negate a Stealth roll entirely.

A Thief with a high enough Stealth could run up (no penalties) on ambushers (-5), from the front (no penalties), in a brightly lit (-5) tunnel, while under Extra Heavy Encumbrance (-4) and still remain 'hidden'. It's just extra penalties to the Thief's Stealth skill (the first -5 is just to perform the action).

I mean, DFRPG Exploits pg 57 allows a Backstab attempt even if the Thief's group was ambushed, this implies that a spotted Thief can disappear from view and move into Backstab position! And this isn't even a Contested roll, it's just Stealth with some penalties (up to -19 canonically).

I've a Martial Artist with a Stealth that is routinely in the lower 30's, after bonuses from Silence (+4) and Light Walk (up to +8), it's a 26 skill before those bonuses, who likes to start fights with a front 'Back'stab (or an actual Backstab if they don't have eyes) just for the +4 and the "style" of the attack.

In fact only two things call out automatically failing Stealth: Carrying lights and making a lot of noise (specifically singing, shouting, or arguing, though I'd count other massive noise sources as well, like banging pots together, or playing a musical instrument, etc). In DFRPG Exploits some feats of ST are also called out as completely negating Stealth, but have no bearing on this specific topic...

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...unlike e.g. D&D 5E I see no indication in DFRPG's rules that Stealth makes you undetectable in combat, especially when out in the open.
Huh, so what does the bold part of this mean to you?

"The attacker can All-Out Attack for further bonuses, but this isn’t recommended - attacking reveals the delver’s presence!" from DFRPG Exploits pg 58.

To me it means that until they attack their presence is unknown, eg. they are hidden. Even if it's a well-lit corridor with nowhere to hide (a mere -5 to the roll).
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Old 12-14-2022, 02:39 PM   #73
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Default Re: Thieves

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
"In Plain View" gives a penalty, it doesn't negate a Stealth roll entirely.

...

In fact only two things call out automatically failing Stealth: Carrying lights and making a lot of noise (specifically singing, shouting, or arguing, though I'd count other massive noise sources as well, like banging pots together, or playing a musical instrument, etc). In DFRPG Exploits some feats of ST are also called out as completely negating Stealth, but have no bearing on this specific topic...
Don't forget Exploits page 26:

If two groups meet in a field, empty room, or other area with clear sightlines and no hiding spots, and neither enjoys supernatural concealment (e.g., invisibility), nobody has surprise!

Implication: sneaking is impossible and Stealth is irrelevant if there are no hiding spots.

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
I mean, DFRPG Exploits pg 57 allows a Backstab attempt even if the Thief's group was ambushed, this implies that a spotted Thief can disappear from view and move into Backstab position!
Another interpretation is that the Thief was sneaking ahead of the group all along and is simply closer to the enemy when the ambush triggers, no "disappearing from view" necessary.

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
Huh, so what does the bold part of this mean to you?

"The attacker can All-Out Attack for further bonuses, but this isn’t recommended - attacking reveals the delver’s presence!" from DFRPG Exploits pg 58.

To me it means that until they attack their presence is unknown, eg. they are hidden. Even if it's a well-lit corridor with nowhere to hide (a mere -5 to the roll).
Since you ask:

I interpret that as commentary and tactical advice. This isn't D&D 5E with its unclear writing and poor editing; SJG is usually pretty good at writing clear rules. I presume that if you were intended to assume that the backstabber can cast spells like Haste and Major Healing, move around in the open, and anything else that isn't attacking while the enemy remains ignorant to his presence, the rules would say so plainly. (And then I would ignore those rules if you had no hiding place, because they'd be unrealistic.)

In other words, I interpret that as a friendly reminder that All-Out Attack is risky.

Last edited by sjmdw45; 12-14-2022 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 12-14-2022, 04:00 PM   #74
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Default Re: Thieves

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
"In Plain View" gives a penalty, it doesn't negate a Stealth roll entirely.

A Thief with a high enough Stealth could run up (no penalties) on ambushers (-5), from the front (no penalties), in a brightly lit (-5) tunnel, while under Extra Heavy Encumbrance (-4) and still remain 'hidden'. It's just extra penalties to the Thief's Stealth skill (the first -5 is just to perform the action).
You're ignoring the first sentence of section on backstabbing: "When the GM starts combat time, anyone may try a Stealth roll to hide in shadows, duck into the bushes, etc".

Stealth is not a cloak of invisibility.
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Old 12-14-2022, 04:12 PM   #75
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Successful use implies the presence of convenient shadows or bushes.
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Old 12-15-2022, 01:50 AM   #76
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It’s Schroedinger’s convenient cover. You assume it’s there if you successfully look for it.

My budget for set dressing is almost infinite in these games. If nothing else, it’s just that the film of the action is edited in a confusing way. Like, “suddenly, there’s a chair with a jacket over it,”or “in the chaos of battle, his attention was on the flashy knight,” or “the shadow from the branch just above the fight obscured your presence.” The players’ suspension of disbelief is bolstered by how well it works out for their character.
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Old 12-15-2022, 03:03 AM   #77
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In this case since you are both designating the battlefield and drawing the maps, it's pretty easy to just make it so it's possible to hide. If you really want a blank well-lit featureless narrow corridor, the only reason is because you are deliberately making stealth impossible.
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Old 12-15-2022, 05:05 AM   #78
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In this case since you are both designating the battlefield and drawing the maps, it's pretty easy to just make it so it's possible to hide. If you really want a blank well-lit featureless narrow corridor, the only reason is because you are deliberately making stealth impossible.
Not so much. In the doomchild case it's because there is a preestablished fictional context: the dungeon keeper has access to 24 doomchildren and some tunnels and doors, and the doomchildren have been ordered to hide behind doors to protect them from missile fire, so "behind the nearest doomchild" is always empty tunnel.

But this isn't a unique case. If you try to Backstab in I Smell a Rat's cellar, you're going to wind up in spider webs getting stabbed by spiders with speed 6.50, faster than you.

There are some other rooms in I Smell A Rat where backstabbing works better though. E.g. backstabbing the peshkali is probably fine--she has no reason to turn around and notice you until after you hit her.

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It’s Schroedinger’s convenient cover. You assume it’s there if you successfully look for it.

My budget for set dressing is almost infinite in these games. If nothing else, it’s just that the film of the action is edited in a confusing way. Like, “suddenly, there’s a chair with a jacket over it,”or “in the chaos of battle, his attention was on the flashy knight,” or “the shadow from the branch just above the fight obscured your presence.” The players’ suspension of disbelief is bolstered by how well it works out for their character.
This works fine if and only if there is no preestablished fictional context. Schrodinger's convenient cover waveform collapses early if someone does recon with Wizard Eye/Rider Within, or if the GM is running a classic dungeon crawl.

Last edited by sjmdw45; 12-15-2022 at 05:14 AM.
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Old 12-15-2022, 05:31 AM   #79
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Or you just draw a shadow or some bushes on there. A successful backstab rolls means they are hiding somewhere.
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Old 12-15-2022, 06:47 AM   #80
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Default Re: Thieves

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Or you just draw a shadow or some bushes on there. A successful backstab rolls means they are hiding somewhere.
I had a thief in the alpha playtest hide in an enemy's shadow because they rolled a 3 and the bad guy rolled an 18. I know it's not contested, but ... come on. That margin was crazy. :-)
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