Enhanced Time Sense and surprise

[sjmdw45]

Enhanced Time Sense has a note that says you're likely to act before everyone else in a fight, "unless you're surprised," but then goes on to say that you are unlikely to be surprised because Enhanced Time Sense includes Combat Reflexes.

How does that let you act before ambushers? I would think the turn sequence would go like this in an ambush:

Round 1

(ETS) Swashbuckler does nothing. Makes a Mental Stun check at +6 for Combat Reflexes at the end of the turn; recovers from surprise.

(Speed 6ish) ambushers shoot arrows, etc. Other PCs may also recover from surprise now.

Round 2

(ETS) Swashbuckler starts throwing knives back at ambushers.

How could the Swashbuckler's Combat Reflexes ever result in acting before the ambushers?

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Enhanced Time Sense has a note that says you're likely to act before everyone else in a fight, "unless you're surprised," but then goes on to say that you are unlikely to be surprised because Enhanced Time Sense includes Combat Reflexes.

How does that let you act before ambushers? I would think the turn sequence would go like this in an ambush:

Round 1

(ETS) Swashbuckler does nothing. Makes a Mental Stun check at +6 for Combat Reflexes at the end of the turn; recovers from surprise.

(Speed 6ish) ambushers shoot arrows, etc. Other PCs may also recover from surprise now.

Round 2

(ETS) Swashbuckler starts throwing knives back at ambushers.

How could the Swashbuckler's Combat Reflexes ever result in acting before the ambushers?

B393:

"Those with Combat Reflexes never freeze, and treat total surprise as partial surprise....

"Partial Surprise

"This may occur when the defenders were expecting trouble . . . or when each party surprised the other! The GM should require each side to roll for initiative....

"The side that gets the highest roll gets the initiative, and can move and act normally."

EDIT: Aaah! This is DFRPG! I just looked at Exploits, and I see the issue.... The rules for Surprise are not the same as in the Basic set!

[JulianLW]

Something that appears to have been left out of DFRPG - and the wording you quote from Enhanced Time Sense is an indication that it might have been left out accidentally - is +2 to initiative rolls to avoid surprise.

According to B43: "Your side gets +1 on initiative rolls to avoid a surprise attack – +2 if you are the leader." For DFRPG, the Initiative roll is replaced by the Quick Contest described on Exploits 27.

I'm not sure why this +2 bonus to avoid Surprise (in addition to the +6 to recover) was removed from DFRPG, but I think it's appropriate to put it back in.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Something that appears to have been left out of DFRPG - and the wording you quote from Enhanced Time Sense is an indication that it might have been left out accidentally - is +2 to initiative rolls to avoid surprise.

According to B43: "Your side gets +1 on initiative rolls to avoid a surprise attack – +2 if you are the leader." For DFRPG, the Initiative roll is replaced by the Quick Contest described on Exploits 27.

I'm not sure why this +2 bonus to avoid Surprise (in addition to the +6 to recover) was removed from DFRPG, but I think it's appropriate to put it back in.

Hmmm, thanks. It's been a long time since I played GURPS so I had forgotten the partial surprise rules, although the "attacked by werewolves while reading in the library" stuck in my head well enough that I've been using it to explain D&D surprise for years, without knowing where it came from.

The Exploits pg 27 Quick Contest is only for when both sides are being stealthy--with vision penalties from bad lighting, if you're traveling by torchlight you're going to be constantly [partially] surprised by jellies and bugbears and brown puddings, etc., unless you either crank your perception through the roof or use magic to do so artificially.

The dungeon I rolled up for my friends' first DF adventure has six (!) brown puddings in the second room. (It turns out to be the toughest room in the dungeon and the only one with normal mana and Sanctity.) I'm going to have to think hard about whether to steal the partial surprise rules from GURPS or just let the players have the shock of their lives. Thanks for the page reference!

Edit: maybe the simplest fix is to keep the DFRPG rules but allow a "free" mental stun recovery check at the start of each combatant's first turn. If you pass, you don't have to Do Nothing even if the other side was being sneaky. Of course, in an ambush, this may not do you much good if the ambushers haven't revealed their positions yet!

[JulianLW]

I think it's also appropriate for DFRPG to just say that someone with ETS is never surprised, period. It's worth 45 points, after all.