Different ways to hold a shield.

[Blood Legend]

I'm sure this is one of those based-on-need type questions, but I've been playing a few dark-fantasy video games (dark souls, darkest dungeon) and I've noticed there's a bunch of different directions for the shield to be held.

There's the usual grips, the vertical grip in the center of the shield, with or without elbow strap, and the angular grip, but some have the grip going horizontal, so when held, your fist is pointing skyward. If you struck with the shield you'd be hitting with the flat edge. Others have the grip near the bottom opposite of this, so you can swipe or strike with the point like a weird katar.

Is there historical precedent for this? Is this something that would have been done? Would you bother to modify shield damage if you thrust with its 'point'?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

Is there historical precedent for this?

Yes.

Is this something that would have been done?

Yes.

Would you bother to modify shield damage if you thrust with its 'point'?

Probably.

[Blood Legend]

*Nod Nod* I see, I see.. (lol).

Examples?

[Kale]

The danger with mucking around with the shield rules too much is it risks turning something that was intended to be defensive into a weapon. A few small frills might be useful though. For instance a re-enforced rim might count as a 'blunt spike' on an edge strike and give +1 cr thr damage.
Changing grip on a shield would take a lot longer than changing grip on a weapon, probably at least a few turns, so may not be practical. That said, if you want to come up with some sort of 'aggressive stance' for a shield then give something like a +1 bonus at a reduction to the DB the shield provides. After all, if you are pointing the edge of your shield directly at the foe then you aren't presenting the large blocking surface towards them.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Kale

something that was intended to be defensive into a weapon.

It is a weapon. Besides slams, you can bash with the face or boss or blunt spike (thr or thr+1), impale with a narrow spike (thr-1), or cut with a sharpened rim (sw-3), or per the training weapon rules, a non-sharpened rim would change damage from cut to cr. Damage as reported is from memory, sorry if it's off by a point. With ST 13 and Weapon Master (Shield), striking with the edge is the way to go. Not sure I'd want the complication that comes with the added granularity of separate mechanics for every possible grip.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

*Nod Nod* I see, I see.. (lol).

Examples?

Um... besides the boss sometimes having a spiky bit instead of just being a dome of metal? Not really.

I know fantasy likes to get heavy into the idea, but I have a hard time with idea of any slashy or pointy bits on the edges, those edges get jammed into the user just way too often (having 'eaten' the top of my shield more then once, I can attest to this). Spikes set into the facing? Sure. They might get snagged in your enemies clothes and might make it easier to drag your shield out of the way though. Not sure.


The whole "grip lower down to make slashing with the tip on the bottom"... if you're talking about kite shields some of them were designed that way because it makes it easier to carry. It's just as easy to use as a horizontal setup* when on foot too (but it'd be crappy on horseback).

* I know of at least one guy who has to use his 'kite' this way in the SCA, his shield is narrower than the length of his forearm. On purpose, he trained with this style shield specifically to freak out his foes (it's also light as all get out and very highly maneuverable).

I did mine that way because I could just hang on to it while 'marching/running' around (damn thing got heavy and I refused to use a guige) also because I had a weird idea to use it to actively 'parry' instead of just passively 'block' (no, I wouldn't change the rules, I was just blocking very aggressively). My weird idea worked... but it was damned tiring.

Also I found the grip more comfortable and easier to maneuver the kite about that way. With my large round shield however, I preferred the standard horizontal grip and buckle set up.

Originally Posted by Kale

Changing grip on a shield would take a lot longer than changing grip on a weapon, probably at least a few turns, so may not be practical.

You probably wouldn't be 'changing grips' on a shield unless your grip breaks... and then you're kinda screwed as you have to hold on either by the edge with both hands, or try to flail it about with one hand (good luck holding on for very long without a proper grip or strap).

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Gef

Not sure I'd want the complication that comes with the added granularity of separate mechanics for every possible grip.

Aside from possibly 'disengaging the guige'? I can't think of any way to 'change up grips' that would be advantageous.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Aside from possibly 'disengaging the guige'? I can't think of any way to 'change up grips' that would be advantageous.

I was referring to the grip styles in the original post, eg. forearm vertical versus horizontal.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Aside from possibly 'disengaging the guige'? I can't think of any way to 'change up grips' that would be advantageous.

I believe the OP meant 'use a shield set up for a different grip than normal' not 'change grips on the shield during a fight'.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Um... besides the boss sometimes having a spiky bit instead of just being a dome of metal? Not really.

I know fantasy likes to get heavy into the idea, but I have a hard time with idea of any slashy or pointy bits on the edges, those edges get jammed into the user just way too often (having 'eaten' the top of my shield more then once, I can attest to this). Spikes set into the facing? Sure. They might get snagged in your enemies clothes and might make it easier to drag your shield out of the way though. Not sure.

I am reminded of a scene from a book (I think one of the Horseclans books), featuring a duel between two sword and board fighters, one of whom had sharpened his shield rim and put IIRC a spring-loaded spike in the boss. He popped the spike and used it to bind the other guy's shield before pressing his attack. So his opponent came in close himself, and shoved the bound shields upwards, using the sharpened edge to cut the owner's throat.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

I'm sure this is one of those based-on-need type questions, but I've been playing a few dark-fantasy video games (dark souls, darkest dungeon) and I've noticed there's a bunch of different directions for the shield to be held.

There's the usual grips, the vertical grip in the center of the shield, with or without elbow strap, and the angular grip, but some have the grip going horizontal, so when held, your fist is pointing skyward. If you struck with the shield you'd be hitting with the flat edge. Others have the grip near the bottom opposite of this, so you can swipe or strike with the point like a weird katar.

Is there historical precedent for this? Is this something that would have been done? Would you bother to modify shield damage if you thrust with its 'point'?

In my humble opinion, this is precisely why Techniques are made: the possibility to add as much granularity as you want to without changing rules. For a game master who knows a bit about shield, it could be done quite easily, following the examples given in Martial Arts for other weapons...