ISW Timeline: When Weapons Affect Doctrine

[Apache]

One thing that's always bothered me about HG.....you have particle beam spinal mounts, and eventually you have meson spinals......but what about laser spinals?

I mean, c'mon...it just makes sense....

Or am I insane?

Also, in MongTrav HG, there are no repulsor bays. Apparently repulsor tech doesn't exist. You do get railguns and such, however.

[Mike Wightman]

The original version of CT High Guard had laser bay weapons IIRC, they were dropped from HG2 for some reason though.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by nik1979

if repulsor arrays are directional, then wouldn't facing be declared? If so then they would need to be declared on the ship statistics.

Not of need.

CT High Guard makes no references at all to facing of ships, and only implies facing matters by virtue of the Batteries vs Batteries Bearing distinction. Repulsors share this batteries/bearing notation in CT. Tractors and repulsors do in MT.

Therefore, bearing matters.

I'm not the only one to come to this conclusion from that singular source; In the article, Exonidas Spaceport (Dragon Magazine #59, p.33-48), Jeff Swycaffer notes directionality as a cone of effect of the repulsor grid used for landings there. (p.36)

There's your closest to canon answer on the directionality of repulsors that I can give.

[nik1979]

The reason I was wondering about

Yeah, why not guase turrets weapons, and beam laser bay and spinal mounts. I think lasers as a Spinal weapons may do less damage but way more accurate.

At the distances they deal with on traveller ship combat fire-resolutions are patters to cover a specific area. All these beam type weapons try to paint an area the best pattern possible, on the defense ship piloting systems try to move in a way they avoid the pattern. Like have preprogrammed evasion patterns like in sci-fi shows. Beam lasers spinal mount would be a giant laser with a massive cone effect. Its less energy than the other spinal mounts but it can cover a larger area.

[ak_aramis]

I'm not positive, Nik, but I seem to recall reading that there is a fundamental length limit to a laser tube or crystal... has to do with absorption of the light.

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

I'm not positive, Nik, but I seem to recall reading that there is a fundamental length limit to a laser tube or crystal... has to do with absorption of the light.

I guess thats where the sci-fi part comes in, could they have figured out a way to overcome that technical hurdle?

[The Rampant Gamer]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Thanks Mike.
If thats the case about repulsor arrays, then its kind of a Cognitive dissonance to have Repulsor Arrays at TL10 and a Missile doctrine, unless RA's are an only terran invention? If both have access to RAs what would doctrine look like?

at 50kdtons
Both can carry as many fighters. So I consider it all negated.
35Turret slots for a spinal mount, leaving 88 for repulsor arrays or bay weapons and missile turrets to launch drones. At most a Vilani can have as much as 12 HMA for 432; easily 5 RAs are more than enough to fend off Vilani missile doctrine. the only recourse is using Fusion or Antimater WMD for proximity detonations at which point I'm getting confused.

So does that mean Terra's tech advantage is so great it plays out like when the west Carved up China? Reading the history outline, there appeared to be a fighting chance for the Vilani or am I mistaken? Hoping for some enlightening corrections thanks.

Some things to take into consideration.

1. The largest, most powerful battleship in the book is only 30k dtons in size, and it mounts only one repulsor bay
2. There are no rules in ISW for using a repulsor bay to protect anyone but yourself - it is a point defense style of weapon in that regard
3. The only repulsor bays you can have in ISW are 100 dtons in size, and large bays take up *10* turret hardpoints and uses 250MW of power.

That means that you can't mount one until you get to hulls of 2000 dtons, and in that case, you'd be using up 10 of your 14 hardpoints (assuming an optimal hull configuration of Needle/Wedge or Cylinder). A 30k dton ship, again assuming optimal configuration, gets 87 hardpoints, and uses nearly half of them on the huge meson gun it's built around.

Now, do you use 10 more of your hardpoints for a repulsor array in that situation? Sure, but even that doesn't make you immune to missiles - it just gives the ship with the repulsor bay a +15 in the ramming contest. But the other option is to mount ten triple laser turrets and slave them to point defense - those will work against missiles, and against fighters and other smaller craft whose armor may not be able to withstand lasers.

Given that heavy cruisers top out, in the recommended size table, at 10k dtons, and cruisers at 5k, you have to ask yourself if it's worth investing 25% in the former, and 38% in the latter, if your firepower potential on a purely defensive weapon system.

[nik1979]

From my tinkering

for at least a light bay weapon, need at least 900dton hull; a heavy bay weapon needs about a 1000dton hull; a spinal weapon needs about 20,000dton hull.

at 20,000dtons about 66turret slots. This leaves about 35 for spinal mount, 10 for RA, and the rest for 63 missiles racks and lasers. If Point defense is stressed, that can be 60 beams and 3 missile racks for EW drones. Already 3060 dtons of power plants. the ship is pretty much made up of drives and powerplants with 4000 lost to fuel and 600 lost to j-drives. At

Vilani Battleship/TL10
20,000Dton
Tech Level: 10
Hull: 20,000-dton Streamlined Cylinder hull, dDR 10 armor.
Systems: 1912.5 Maneuver Drive, 600 Jump Drive, 4000 Fuel Tanks, Command Bridge, Model-9 Sensors (Scan 24), 21 Light Turrets, 60 Beam Lasers, 3 missile Racks, Light Particle Cannon Spinal Mount, 100 x 2dton Vehicle Bays: Life Pods (UT232)), 2000dton Hangar bay (200 10dton Missile Fighters), Repulsor Array, 4987.5 Fusion Power Plants, 505 Staterooms, 10 Workshop, 10 Sickbay, 100 Cargo.
Statistics: Emass 117,861 tons, Lmass 142,473 tons, Cost M$2,600M, SM +12, Asig +8, Hull dHP 250, Life Support 1010, sAccel 2.7 G, Jump-2 (2-parsec range), Top Air Speed 740 mph.
Crew:
Command: 415
Engineering: 471
Support: 55

Missile defense is at about 100RA + 60PD
Offensive capabilities: 60BT, SMHPC, and 400 missiles from 200 missile fighters.
The trade off the spinal mount is 3 HMA at 108 missiles
I wish i can crunch the numbers some more, pretty close to something.

[The Rampant Gamer]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Vilani Battleship/TL10
20,000Dton
Tech Level: 10
Hull: 20,000-dton Streamlined Cylinder hull, dDR 10 armor.

That armor is a red flag for me. Yes, your defenses are good, but you can't point defend against lasers, fusion guns and particle beams. The Kargash class of light cruisers, at 1/10th the size, have 24 times the armor, plus stealth. I think I'd give some consideration to being able to at least block an average beam laser shot, if not going for the dDR400 of the Indomitable.

Of course, if you're sure you're going up against meson weapons, maybe that armor isn't as valuable...

Systems: 1912.5 Maneuver Drive, 600 Jump Drive, 4000 Fuel Tanks, Command Bridge, Model-9 Sensors (Scan 24), 21 Light Turrets, 60 Beam Lasers, 3 missile Racks, Light Particle Cannon Spinal Mount, 100 x 2dton Vehicle Bays: Life Pods (UT232)), 2000dton Hangar bay (200 10dton Missile Fighters)

I'm torn on the fighters here. Yes, the Terran ship has fighters, but it has 20 of them. And yes, the Tigress class dreadnaught has 300 fighters, as many as a fleet carrier. They're a great force multiplier, but this has the feel of a carrier that happens to have a spinal mount instead of a battleship to me. Eh, it's probably just me.

, Repulsor Array, 4987.5 Fusion Power Plants, 505 Staterooms, 10 Workshop, 10 Sickbay, 100 Cargo.
Statistics: Emass 117,861 tons, Lmass 142,473 tons, Cost M$2,600M, SM +12, Asig +8, Hull dHP 250, Life Support 1010, sAccel 2.7 G, Jump-2 (2-parsec range), Top Air Speed 740 mph.
Crew:
Command: 415
Engineering: 471
Support: 55

[nik1979]

oops sorry that was dDR 350 (cut and pasted the format from one of the many freighters i was doing a cost analysis).
I have another one in the works: a 20,000dton Missile Battleship can have 200 fighters with 5x 10dton Launch Tubes and 6 heavy missile bays on its flanks with 5.5Gs. Ideally 216 and 400 missile volley capacity.

That doesn't even count the rules for Nukes Mark made. Just one nuke penetrating is game over..

ok made one, but it was only 160 fighters (4 launch tubes), 4 HMA, 1 RA, 30 BTs, 18 MT. 144 + 320 missiles... and 6G and DR400. Since its a Bay weapon it doesnt need to face the Indomitable, it will just keep moving perpendicularly away while launching missiles. With the fighters present trying to outflank. Its also cheaper by $800M