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Old 11-12-2017, 10:44 AM   #21
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

Classic Hero system logic would tell you that when Power A is usable only while Power B is in operation (giving you a reduced cost on Power A) then the value of Power A may not exceed Power B for game balance reasons.

It's not bad for pure game balance theory and in this case You would be limited to levels of the Enhanced Defense Meta-trait (Enhanced Dodge+ Enhanced Parry + Enhanced Block) equal to 3 per level of ATR.

That's purely Gamist but I can't give you reality-based numbers in this case. "Roll to Hit v. Roll to Defend" is pretty Gamist.
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:47 AM   #22
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by Clockwork_Virus View Post
At that point I might just say "if you have Altered Time Rate and Enhanced Time Sense, you may purchase [your Basic Speed rounded down] levels of Enhanced Dodge per level of Altered Time Rate".
+Move seems excessive. I would suggest +Power Talent per level, which still could end up with with nearly uselessly high Dodge.

Speaking of which, Dodge above 16 is only useful in a few circumstances:
  • Penalties to Dodge are rare, and usually don't exceed -4.
  • Dodging rapid fire, which usually results in only a few hits.

This suggests that Dodge 20 is only somewhat useful, and higher levels rapidly become less so.
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:00 AM   #23
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

I think that the primary benefit of ATR is meant to be offensive rather than defensive though, as it allows for multiple turns of Concentration, multiple turns of Activation, etc. A suitable alternative power for ATR though could be five levels of Basic Speed, giving +5 Basic Move and +5 Dodge.

For example, the Amulet of Time could give Enhanced Time Sense (Breakable, Dr 5, SM-6, Not Repairable, -40%; Can Be Stolen, Stealth or Trickery, -20%; Costs 2 FP/minute, -10%; Magical, -10%) [9], ATR 10 (Breakable, Dr 5, SM-6, Not Repairable, -40%; Can Be Stolen, Stealth or Trickery, -20%; Costs 2 FP/minute, -10%; Magical, -10%) [200] and Basic Speed 50.00 (Alternate Power for ATR 10; Breakable, Dr 5, SM-6, Not Repairable, -40%; Can Be Stolen, Stealth or Trickery, -20%; Costs 2 FP/minute, -10%; Magical, -10%) [40]. The ATR represents the offensive capabilities of the Amulet of Time while the Basic Speed plus 50.00 represents the defensive capabilities of the Amulet of Time (the Enhanced Time Sense represents the sensory capabilities of the Amulet of Time).
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:23 AM   #24
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Classic Hero system logic would tell you that when Power A is usable only while Power B is in operation (giving you a reduced cost on Power A) then the value of Power A may not exceed Power B for game balance reasons.

It's not bad for pure game balance theory and in this case You would be limited to levels of the Enhanced Defense Meta-trait (Enhanced Dodge+ Enhanced Parry + Enhanced Block) equal to 3 per level of ATR.

That's purely Gamist but I can't give you reality-based numbers in this case. "Roll to Hit v. Roll to Defend" is pretty Gamist.
If that is poses a problem, you could just do it the other way around and give the discount to ATR instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
+Move seems excessive. I would suggest +Power Talent per level, which still could end up with with nearly uselessly high Dodge.

Speaking of which, Dodge above 16 is only useful in a few circumstances:
  • Penalties to Dodge are rare, and usually don't exceed -4.
  • Dodging rapid fire, which usually results in only a few hits.

This suggests that Dodge 20 is only somewhat useful, and higher levels rapidly become less so.
Well, how common penalties are depend a lot on the skill levels of the foes you face. In a game with high levels of ATR, those might be very high. Also, if ATR is common among your foes and if (as I suggested in the original post) ATR also gives a penalty to attempts to defend against your attacks (which would reasonably be as high as the bonus to active defenses since what matters in that regard is how many times faster one combatant is than the other), then dodge penalites could get very common.
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:55 PM   #25
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
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Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
OP can correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that he is asking what a realistic bonus would be rather than suggesting it should be included free of charge with ATR.
That is correct.
Your "realistic" bonus is whatever you points into. That's how GURPS works.
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:14 PM   #26
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Well, how common penalties are depend a lot on the skill levels of the foes you face. In a game with high levels of ATR, those might be very high. Also, if ATR is common among your foes and if (as I suggested in the original post) ATR also gives a penalty to attempts to defend against your attacks (which would reasonably be as high as the bonus to active defenses since what matters in that regard is how many times faster one combatant is than the other), then dodge penalites could get very common.
Well skill 24 is a maximum Deceptive Attack penalty of -6. I think if you are seeing much higher than that, then you might want to consider capping skill levels, rather than inflating defenses.

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Your "realistic" bonus is whatever you points into. That's how GURPS works.
I think they are asking after limits for a Power.
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:39 PM   #27
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Your "realistic" bonus is whatever you points into. That's how GURPS works.
That is not really the case. There are bonuses which would give obviously unrealistic results. For example, +100 per doubling of ATR level would obviously be way too much. It would in no reasonable way pass reality testing, being slightly faster than someone else does not by itself make you near impossible to hit. Similarly (but not as clearly) it can be seen that +1 per doubling of ATR level would be too little.

It might be true that there is no single realistic solution (there are after all various interpretations of how GURPS values should coorespond to reality), but there is some range of values which could reasonably be considered realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Well skill 24 is a maximum Deceptive Attack penalty of -6. I think if you are seeing much higher than that, then you might want to consider capping skill levels, rather than inflating defenses.


I think they are asking after limits for a Power.
Whether capping skill levels is appropriate or not depends on how much skill varies in the setting. In settings whith a broad range of superhuman skill values, a cap of something like 24 would not be appropriate. Also, You can get a penalty larger than -6 with skill 24 in some circumstances such as if you use an All-Out Attack (Determined).

No, I'm not asking specifically after limits for a Power. I'm asking for what the realistic values are for someone who in every way fights faster than a normal person.
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Whether capping skill levels is appropriate or not depends on how much skill varies in the setting. In settings whith a broad range of superhuman skill values, a cap of something like 24 would not be appropriate. Also, You can get a penalty larger than -6 with skill 24 in some circumstances such as if you use an All-Out Attack (Determined).
There are mechanical limits, the most obvious are those of ranged weapons, but even melee weapons cannot, for instance, hit discriminate targets smaller than their cross-section.

Regardless, my point is that increasing Dodge much above 20 is likely to be increasingly inefficient.
Quote:
No, I'm not asking specifically after limits for a Power. I'm asking for what the realistic values are for someone who in every way fights faster than a normal person.
Realistically, such things are probably better modeled as speed penalties than dodge bonuses, and for those you have the SSR.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 11-12-2017 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 11-12-2017, 02:36 PM   #29
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
There are mechanical limits, the most obvious are those of ranged weapons, but even melee weapons cannot, for instance, hit discriminate targets smaller than their cross-section.

Regardless, my point is that increasing Dodge much above 20 is likely to be increasingly inefficient.

Realistically, such things are probably better modeled as speed penalties than dodge bonuses, and for those you have the SSR.
Weapon cross-sections can be very thin and there can be plenty of other penalties to the attack roll.

Why would something like being able to, as if in slow motion, clearly see your opponents sword inching towards you and being fast enough for your movments to keep up with this perception, which allows you to easily get out of the way from most attacks be modeled as a speed penalty to your opponents attack roll? That clearly seems like an extremly high Dodge to me. Someone with very high ATR won't necessarily be moving extremly fast, he might just react near instantly and leisurely move just enough to avoid the attack.
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Old 11-12-2017, 02:54 PM   #30
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Weapon cross-sections can be very thin and there can be plenty of other penalties to the attack roll.
"Very thin" is relative. Other penalties are no more relevant than they are with ranged weapons.
Quote:
Why would something like being able to, as if in slow motion, clearly see your opponents sword inching towards you and being fast enough for your movments to keep up with this perception, which allows you to easily get out of the way from most attacks be modeled as a speed penalty to your opponents attack roll? That clearly seems like an extremly high Dodge to me. Someone with very high ATR won't necessarily be moving extremly fast, he might just react near instantly and leisurely move just enough to avoid the attack.
Do you want realistic limits or comic book physics? Realistically, by definition something moving many times faster than something else is in fact faster, it also will have greater air resistance, increased momentum, and lots of other things that aren't ever a problem for the Flash.
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