Questions about Gadgets

[Anders]

Are Powers bought with the Gadget limitation implicitly treated as signature gear or do you need to buy that separately?

Can other characters borrow your Gadgets and use them?

[spacemonkey]

p 477 borrowing gadgets inflicts an unusual background cost on the receiver for game balance.

[ravenfish]

In answer to the first question, many gadgets are things that couldn't be bought for any amount of money, so obviously you can't buy them as signature gear. Even for gadgets you could have bought as signature gear instead, if you've bought it as a gadget, then you've bought it and don't need to buy it again.

In answer to the second question, a gadget with the full version of Can Be Stolen works for a thief by default, so presumably such a gadget also works for an ally who gets his hands on it, but see the rules about an unusual background for a "Gadgeteer Ally".

[Anders]

I think that's another use of the term "Gadget". That's talking about items made with the Gadgeteer advantage. I'm talking about powers bought with the Gadget limitations (p. B117-118).

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Anders

I think that's another use of the term "Gadget". That's talking about items made with the Gadgeteer advantage. I'm talking about powers bought with the Gadget limitations (p. B117-118).

Fair point. I would personally require a similar Unusual Background on the same principal, but I don't think there's anything in the Rules as Written addressing it explicitly. As I said, if thieves can use it if they grab it, then presumably allies can.

[AlexanderHowl]

Gadgets are, in many cases, superior to Signature Gear, but I would rule that you need to purchase Signature Gear if the item has significant value outside of the ability use (10% or more of starting wealth). Below that value, it is not worth really bothering with Signature Gear. Above that value, there are likely substantial benefits to the character, so it is worthwhile to charge them for the Signature Gear.

For example, let us say that I have the Sword of Flames: Burning Attack 2d (Shortsword; Armor Divisor, /10, +200%; Melee, C-1, Destructive Parry, -10%; Protected Shortsword, -20%) [27]. The sword itself is a very fine balanced shortsword, meaning that it is worth $4800 at TL4, so I would charge 5 CP for Signature Gear because it is worth 240% of starting wealth. By TL8 though, the shortsword would be worth $1600, 8% of starting wealth, so I would not charge Signature Gear for it.

[oneofmanynameless]

Generally I assume that any part of the gadget that is "mundane equipment" and not specifically being paid for with CP must be purchased with money, and that signature gear is useful for doing that for expensive items like very nice swords. i.e. if you have a magic cape that lets you fly it's gadget limited flight, and you have to buy a cape with your starting budget (I'm assuming this is done at character creation.)

I would also point out that the main purpose of signature gear is plot protection for mundane equipment, and how easy a gadget is to recover if lost can influence the gadget limitations value. I would assume that recovering a gadget limited item typically requires going out of your way to track it down (if merely lost or stolen), or repurchasing the mundane parts of it and some considerable work (if destroyed or irrevocably lost or stolen). If you have signature gear for that item as well then that would provide an additional benefit of bringing your item back to you! In that case your gadget limitation definitely couldn't include Unique.

EDIT: I think I've also seen somewhere (I can't remember where) that an ability can include appropriate power perks at no additional cost: a burning attack can be used like the ignition perk, a laser burning attack like a illumination perk, etc. It is probably an optional rule if it even is one (I also know a burning attack can't normally be "scaled down" without an enhancement). If you were playing with that alternate rule then a gadget limited ability could include the function of an accessory perk at no additional cost. And if not then you could just buy accessory (although then it might not be steal-able.)

[Stormcrow]

Let's recognize that GURPS uses the word gadget generally to mean any device. It takes on more specific meanings in certain contexts. In the invention rules it means an invention; in the rules for advantages it means any piece of equipment that grants traits paid for with character points (traits with gadget limitations on them); in rules for equipment and non-invention skills it just retains the general meaning of any device.

Signature Gear, on the other hand, lets you own "distinctive" possessions that are part of your "personal legend." You can't use Signature Gear just as an excuse to have lots of expensive equipment for character points instead of cash. The Signature Gear needs to be an essential part of your character story, and it has to be something with a cash value in the campaign. (If it's built with points, it's a character and you use the rules for Allies. If it's not the sort of thing that's available for sale in the game world, it's only available as gadget-limited traits.)

Signature Gear and gear that grants traits paid for with character points are two entirely separate things. Signature Gear doesn't grant you traits. Gadget-limited traits are only allowed on traits representing gear you couldn't buy for any price.

For gear that isn't part of your personal legend and doesn't grant you traits, you MUST pay cash.

For AlexanderHowl's Sword of Flame worth $4,800, its cash value means swords like it are available for sale in the game world, so it could be Signature Gear but not gadget-limited traits. If a character wanted the Sword of Flame in a campaign world where Swords of Flame are not something you can buy, then it could not be Signature Gear but it could be bought with gadget-limited traits.

There will be game worlds where the availability of certain types of gear might be hazy. The GM will have to decide in those cases.

(I'm not getting into rules outside of the Basic Set. I know there are rules for powering up gear and so on in supplements.)

[JulianLW]

Steve Rogers: "Big man in a suit of armor. Take that off, what are you?"
Tony Stark: "Genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist."
Steve Rogers: "I know guys with none of that worth ten of you."

This post in Mailanka's Musings is, I think, a great place to go to consider how to handle Gadgets and Signature Gear in a game. The short answer is that it depends on genre:

https://mailanka.blogspot.com/2019/0...urps.html#more.

I favor genres - like Mailanka's Psi Wars - and most Superhero comics - where gear is not part of character progression. And I tend to not like genres where one character is a 1600 CP sorcerer supreme and the next guy is a 150 CP dude inside a 1400 CP suit of armor. (And that's not the version of Tony Stark we're given in the movies, either; Tony continues to be a superhero even after he destroys his armor - he just builds more. And he's superheroically formidable without any armor at all; see Iron Man 2.)

I know folks will scream Munchkinism at me, but I think it's reasonable to allow Gadgeteers to build gadgets according to the rules in Basic and then buy those gadgets as signature gear based on the cost of making them (a suggestion I've seen before on this forum), which obviates the problem of the 1400 CP suit. I also think it's appropriate to have the "Gadgeteer Friend" UB and then buy a superscience gadget as an item bought with cash (usually a LOT of cash, since the gear will often be from a higher tech level, in addition to being "superscience."). And I think this is also the kind of thinking behind Christopher Rice's "Metatronic Generators."

The bottom line for me is that I can imagine spending a few CP to be able to use a particular item - or maybe even a dozen or 25 CP to use a very powerful item, but in general, you shouldn't have most of your character, most of your personality, be defined by STUFF, even if you are a gadgeteer. You should be defined by the fact that you're a Gadgeteer, not by the particular gadgets.

I think no GM, for example, would say you have to buy a sniper rifle as an Innate Attack with Gadget Limitations, and I don't think you should have to buy Iron Man's suit that way, either.

But you should have to pay for the privilege of making and using unusual items (i.e. Gadgeteer or other Unusual Background, and maybe Wealth or High Tech Level, etc.) - and then invest some character points (if you plan on having it continue to be a part of how you play) in "attuning" to that thing - to demonstrate its importance to you, like losing the 1 CP you put into Weapon Bond when you throw it into the heart of the dragon hovering over the pit of lava or whatever....

Green Lantern's ring might be another story, though.... But implicit in that kind of character build is that someday, the guy with that ring is going to lose the ring (otherwise why is it a ring rather than just an outright power?) - and on that day become 1000 CP less of a character, i.e. basically a normal person again. I don't like that, but I think (again, as Mailanka points out), that how much gear costs in CP - and how relatively valuable gear is when compared to innate abilities - is a matter of genre. And just as GURPS has a potentially nearly limitless number of variations on how magic can work in a game, there are a lot of ways gear can be handled.

I like Kromm's alternative Signature Gear rules:

Originally Posted by Kromm

One could take this point of view:

Currently, at 1 point per 50% of average campaign starting money, Signature Gear 2 [2] gives stuff worth 100% of starting cash, on top of cash. In effect, then, for 1/5 the price of Comfortable [10], someone with Average wealth gets the same boost in stuff as if he had taken Comfortable, as long as he accepts the boost in the form of plot-protected gear. One could extend this thinking. A possible reinvention of Signature Gear would be:

1. Buy your wealth level normally and note its starting money. Example: Sig Sigson is a TL3 warrior with Struggling wealth. This costs him -10 points (a disadvantage) and gives him just $500 in cash.
2. Select a higher wealth level and note its point cost and starting money. Example: Sig wants cool gear commensurate with that of a knight, who would be a Status 2 individual with a wealth level of Wealthy. Wealthy costs 20 points and gives $5,000 in cash.
3. Find the point-cost difference between these wealth levels, divide that difference by 5, and pay that many points for Signature Gear. Example: The difference in cost is 20 - (-10) = 30 points, so Sig pays 30/5 = 6 points for Signature Gear.
4. Find the starting-money difference between the wealth levels, note that with your Signature Gear advantage, and take up to that many $ in plot-protected gear. Example: The difference in cash is $5,000 - $500 = $4,500, so Sig notes Signature Gear ($4,500) [6] and is glad his GM didn't charge him 9 points for this.

This way, some would-be elven bow owner who has Average wealth and wants a $15,300 bow could just get Signature Gear ($19,000) [6] – which would be Signature Gear ($19,500) [8] for Sig. Those who want to mess with intermediate levels could do so, too, I suppose.

I guess intermediate levels are crucial. Those who want $100,000,000 starships at TL10 could take either Signature Gear ($49,950,000) [15] or Signature Gear ($499,950,000) [20], but might want in-between levels. So extend the Wealth chart:

×1.5 for 5 points
×2 for 10 points
×3 for 15 points
×5 for 20 points
×10 for 25 points
×20 for 30 points
×40 for 35 points
×60 for 40 points
×80 for 45 points
×100 for 50 points
×200 for 55 points
×400 for 60 points
×600 for 65 points
×800 for 70 points
×1,000 for 75 points
×2,000 for 80 points
×4,000 for 85 points
×6,000 for 90 points
×8,000 for 95 points
×10,000 for 100 points

I guess my attitude here, finally, is that GURPS is about Roleplaying, not Gear-playing. If it's gear, there's going to come a time when you don't have it. (Again, if there's never a time when you don't have it, then why isn't it just an outright power you have?) And Han Solo doesn't become less heroic - much less 50% less valuable (or more) than all the other characters - just because he doesn't have the Millennium Falcon.

Using all these variants does tend to make Signature Gear - even powerful Metatronic Generator-style Signature Gear - very cheap. Because sooner or later (in the superhero stories, in Star Wars, in the genres I like), the plot is going to come down to character, rather than to the size of the gun you bought - however you bought it. If it's gear, there will come a time when you don't have it, no matter how you built the character.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

The Signature Gear needs to be an essential part of your character story

For me, this is the key part of the entire Advantage. It's even the basis for the name. Sig Gear isn't just stuff that's expensive or stuff that gives you abilities. It's stuff that's central to the character concept. The character would be unrecognizable without those items, lacking flavor and undistinguished from a generic archetype. Green Lantern's ring, yes. Gandalf's elven ring Narya, no*. He-Man's sword, yes. The magic sword currently toted by every ye olde fantasy fighter? No.

if it's built with points, it's a character and you use the rules for Allies.

Which serves as a touchstone for answering the "does a Gadget automatically have plot protection" question. You might well ask the same question about Allies. I'd think the answer should be the same for both Allies and Gadgets -- either they're both plot-protected because they have CP spent on them, or neither are.

My own usual practice is to treat the characters/items involved as those traits as Sig Gear. Usually they meet the main criterion of being central to the concept anyway (or the player wouldn't be spending points on them). And there's not a way to calculate a cash value for them to give a Sig Gear cost.

If you want to charge extra for plot protection, I like RPK's approach. Make Sig Gear solely about plot protection, removing the "get stuff for points" aspect. You have to buy the stuff separately. For CP-based items, figure the Sig Gear cost by working the Wealth rules backwards; 1x starting wealth = 1CP, 2x = 2 CP, 5x = 3 CP, etc.

--
* No doubt some would feel differently. My point here is that it's not about the item, but the feel of the character. Narya is undoubtedly rare and special in Middle-Earth. But it's not necessary for Gandalf to seem like Gandalf. Notice that you don't even know he has the ring until late in the story. It's practically a bit of retcon to tie things together after the fact. And nothing earlier in The Hobbit or LOTR was the least bit implausible about Old Wizard Guy without knowing he had a super-special ring. We would have accepted a quirk about fireworks and fighting off wargs by turning pinecones into fireballs with no additional items or ties to lore required, nor would have scratched our head and wondered "but what about that fire stuff" if it had never been mentioned. Take away Green Lantern's ring, and the remnant super-normal space pilot / alien warrior / whatever might be a perfectly competent adventurer and even one you'd see as just that in the genre, with plenty of special abilities -- but he wouldn't be Green Lantern. Take away Gandalf's ring, and you've still got Gandalf.