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Old 12-18-2018, 11:00 AM   #51
ericthered
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Red's kick to the left leg (16 - 2 (kick) - 2(leg) =12 ) misses at 13, but the roll to keep my balance succeeds at 11. That costs 2 AP, and I have 1, so I'm burning FP.



I have effective will 20 for PIF: Will 10 + 3(base bonus) +5 (life or death) +2 (relative skill bonus). No roll is required.


I gain 5 AP, spend one to keep my balance, and have 4/10 left, 9/10 FP.



Darn. I was hoping to take advantage of your inability to retreat. That miss might turn the game.
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Old 12-18-2018, 12:30 PM   #52
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

(I was hoping you wouldn't notice that Do Nothing's inability to move prevents retreats... teehee)

Of course, since we were 2 yards apart you (Zack Red) must have used your Free Step to get within 1 yard to throw another kick at me Arthur Green (unless of course you took All-Out Attack: Long to get +1 to reach... allowing a kick at reach 2.... please specify if that is what you did instead of a standard attack maneuver!) meaning that while you can retreat if I attack you, you'll have to spend more AP to do it :)

If someone neglects to specify a different maneuver, I think we should assume that they took a standard Attack maneuver. Even though you didn't take a bonus to skill (ruling out All-Out Attack Determined and Committed Attack Determined) it's not clear from the description that this wasn't a Defensive Attack or a Committed Attack: Strong or All-Out Attack: Strong, for example.

In cases where a standard Attack maneuver doesn't make sense (ie requiring movement of more than 1 step to get in reach) a request for clarification of maneuver (was it CA, MAA or AOA) should be issued.

The other half of your spending FP: Hitting the Wall is your HT+5 (15) plus skill bonus. This brings you to 17, so since it isn't 19 or higher, you must roll to see whether or not you lose HP, though this will only happen if you roll a critical failure.

Since this is not "the turn after" like Persistance is Futile, you would roll it right away, meaning that if you suffer damage the shock could affect whether or not you passed your DX/Kicking (both 14) roll to avoid falling down.

Since you rolled an 11 though, it would take 4 damage for that to happen. Since you roll "thrust crushing" on a critical failure of Hitting the Wall, this is a 1/6 possibility since ST 10 gives a thrust of 1d-2. That's on top of the 1/216 chance of getting an 18 (B382, 17 is not a critical miss on skill 16+, just a normal failure which inflicts 1 HP) but I may as well wait for you to roll before I choose what to do for my next turn.

Although... do you think the penalty you opt to take to your DX/Kicking when making a Deceptive Attack should also apply to the roll against these to maintain balance on a miss? Is is harder to keep your balance if you miss when kicking super-fast or at weird angles?

That wouldn't apply here since you didn't make a Deceptive Kick, but I think it would be a realistic consideration. The flip side of that should of course be that any bonuses to skill (All-Out Determined, Committed Determined, Telegraphic attack or Evaluate) should also apply to the roll to avoid falling down. Thoughts?

What I can do now though, is make my roll v HT+4 (16) to see if Arthur Green recovers any AP from his Do Nothing.

Room 282 roll was 14, which is a pass but only gives me back 1 AP since I only succeeded by 2 points. It's too bad neither of us has Breath Control! My AP increases from 2/12 to 3/12.

roll 3d6 to see if you lose HP from Hitting the Wall and then I will choose Arthur's maneuver after that

Last edited by Plane; 12-18-2018 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 12-18-2018, 12:55 PM   #53
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

8 vs. 17 is a success!


Yes, he took a standard attack and used a step to move forward, so retreating will cost FP if he has to this turn.



I agree that someone who specifies an attack but not a maneuver is taking the standard attack maneuver.



I would not penalize the balance roll for a missed kick if it was deceptive. I think deceptive attacks are a staple of GURPS, and that the game suffers when they are discouraged.
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Old 12-18-2018, 11:47 PM   #54
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Deceptive Attack is a staple for skilled guys, MA even suggests that newbies (our chars aren't noobs) shouldn't even be be allowed to do them :)

6a) you kicked (20 til)
6b) use free step to close into range C with you, go from 3/10 to 2/10 AP to throw a deceptive attack (-2 to skill to give you -1 to defend) to try and punch you in a random hit location... I roll a 13 which is higher than my modified 12, I miss (ITS NOT FOR EVERYONE)
7a) your turn (19 til) you have 4/10 AP 9/10 FP
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Old 12-19-2018, 09:35 AM   #55
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

16(skill) -2(kick) - 2 (left leg) =12 vs 9: hit!

1 AP burned, down to 3. You should have to burn at least 1 to get out of this, and probably more.

I'm sort of exploiting a rules loophole here: if I had paid 2 points to get a +1 to targeting your leg, my "predictability" would give you +1 to defense vs each attack after the first. But because I'm using the unmodified default, no penalty for repeated targeting is incurred.

my conclusion from this fight is that characters who are considering raising Karate or Brawling a level should instead consider the kicking technique.


Yes, deceptive attack is for skilled characters, I agree. And the last gasp makes it a little less valuable because misses damage your relative AP balance, spending AP without your foe spending as well.
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Old 12-19-2018, 10:33 AM   #56
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

My left leg was the one already injured (I really need to use "remaining" more to make searches easier...) so I definitely don't want to let you cripple that...

(remember in 3e when C-range kicks took a -1 to damage penalty?)

2AP is enough for me to make a defense with a retreat, the question is if I should burn another FP to pay another 2 AP to get the Feverish bonus.

That wold bring me down into penalty territory and you didn't make this Deceptive so for now I think I'll risk just a normal retreating dodge...

9+1foe+3retreat = target 13.

you didn't get back to me on whether to use http://www.gamesdiner.com/rules-nugget-gurps-duck but I just realized B203 doesn't give you a default skill in JUMPING from attributes, so it wouldn't apply to our fight since neither character is specified as having it... I'm not sure if author recognized that. Since Jumping sub for either DX or double Basic Move, perhaps rolling against one of those would be a good substitute for someone lacking the skill?

I rolled a 9, I successfully dodge with MoS 4, but I now have 0/12 AP 10/12 FP. What a waste, shouldn't have done that retreat...

7b) I'm choosing All-Out Defense: Double (staying put, don't want to lose my free retreat this time!)

Turn 8a, you have 3/10 AP 9/10 FP (19 seconds until adrenaline wears off and Partial Injuries take effect

Quote:
sort of exploiting a rules loophole here: if I had paid 2 points to get a +1 to targeting your leg, my "predictability" would give you +1 to defense vs each attack after the first. But because I'm using the unmodified default, no penalty for repeated targeting is incurred.
I wouldn't have used those Targeted Attack / Combination Attack bonuses anyway. It's a good concept but the idea of predicting attacks should probably be a little more complicated than "if you did it last turn". Even something like Rock/Scissors/Paper is more nuanced...
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:36 AM   #57
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
(remember in 3e when C-range kicks took a -1 to damage penalty?)
Nope! I've only ever played 4e, and the only 3e books I own are setting books. I get the impression I'm on the younger side for Gurps Players.


Quote:
you didn't get back to me on whether to use http://www.gamesdiner.com/rules-nugget-gurps-duck but I just realized B203 doesn't give you a default skill in JUMPING from attributes, so it wouldn't apply to our fight since neither character is specified as having it... I'm not sure if author recognized that. Since Jumping sub for either DX or double Basic Move, perhaps rolling against one of those would be a good substitute for someone lacking the skill?

So I'm actually more familiar with a house rule that keeps the defense bonus vs to-hit penalty the same but makes those changes: limbs and the head get a +1 to defense, but a +2 to hit from their normal hit location penalties. You can target arms at +0, but they get +1 to defend, and so forth. I like this because the head is already far too difficult to hit in gurps. I believe the version I was working with only did that for melee attacks: ranged attacks still had the full penalties and no defense bonus.



Jumping is weird, because it overrides something DX lets you do normally. The skill itself says to roll against the higher of DX or jumping skill. So you can argue the effective default for jumping is DX-0. I actually think that acrobatics is the appropriate skill for the "Jump!" variant, not jumping.


Quote:
I rolled a 9, I successfully dodge with MoS 4, but I now have 0/12 AP 10/12 FP. What a waste, shouldn't have done that retreat...
it took you from a 9 to a 12, so I'd say, that yes, you should have done it. You have no way of knowing what you're going to roll, and 75% safe vs. 37% safe is a big deal.



Quote:
I wouldn't have used those Targeted Attack / Combination Attack bonuses anyway. It's a good concept but the idea of predicting attacks should probably be a little more complicated than "if you did it last turn". Even something like Rock/Scissors/Paper is more nuanced...

Its worse than "if you did it last turn". That's actually where I think it should be. It's "Every attack to the same location for the rest of the fight". There is a lot of fun stuff you can add to make that more complicated. But I do think that (for instance) constantly taking kicks against the leg should allow the target to take some sort of defensive action, even if it decreases focus elsewhere.



Feint vs skill 16... 13. Success by 3. I'm down to 2 AP. If you fail to resist my feint you loose an AP (or rather, don't get to recover any). You should be able to make the AP roll.



Bad rolls suck. At least it wasn't a missed kick.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:52 PM   #58
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I actually think that acrobatics is the appropriate skill for the "Jump!" variant, not jumping.
That already controls acrobatic dodge, which is like weird twisting and cartwheels and stuff. Jump is more like the raw explosive power of "move my leg fast". That said, "lift my knee quickly to my chest" sounds more like something specific to Running than to Jumping. I'd say you should roll Running to dodge just 1 leg, but if it's a swinging attack that will just result in your other leg getting hit, so you should roll Jump against a swinging attack to get both legs out of the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I do think that (for instance) constantly taking kicks against the leg should allow the target to take some sort of defensive action, even if it decreases focus elsewhere.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Rolepla...d-Defense.html was eventually included on page 92 of http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Compendium2/ and seems to fit the bill.

The biggest problem with stuff like this (or with feints/beats) is that to avoid metagaming concerns you pretty much need secret communiques between players and GMs yet with complete notes since after choices are made you can prove they chose what they did.

I'm not sure how to do it using our current tools except to have a room only accessible by 1 of us where we list secret choices before they are responded to, work on a trust system and then at the end of the fight we give each other the passwords and verify all the choices were what they were later said to be revealed as.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Feint vs skill 16... 13. Success by 3. I'm down to 2 AP. If you fail to resist my feint you loose an AP (or rather, don't get to recover any). You should be able to make the AP roll.
Resisting a Feint costs nothing if you win, but costs 1 AP otherwise.

I'm guessing the way it would work is I could pay that out of the 2 free AP I get for defenses, but if you pay ANY (even just 1/2) of the free AP for defenses, it doesn't work like an untriggered wait and give you the HT roll.

I wonder if it works that way for critically successful active defenses (they don't cost AP) since they wouldn't use any of the 2 free AP either?

Huh... y'know since AOD:Determined giving +2 to parry/block is effectively giving +4 to DX of the underlying skill, it feels like you should get +4 to that skill for resisting feints =/ Wouldn't matter here since I chose "double" of course...

Page 20 of Technical Grappling mentions "After an All-Out Attack, you automatically lose most Contests," but I can't find anything about how to adapt the other 2 defense-penalizing maneuvers (Committed Attack, Move and Attack) in relation to resisting contests.

Top of 20 has a new "Contest" option for AOA ("Any technique or maneuver that counts as an attack and is resolved with a Contest gets +2 ST or DX.") and 21 for CA ("Any technique or maneuver resolved as a
Contest that counts as an attack gets +1 ST or DX.") and 21 also mentions "He may use any other defense – including a ST, DX, or skill roll in Contest – but at -2."

Cole on TG21 says for Defensive Attack "You have -2 to ST and DX in Contests in which you are the attacker" then "You have +1 to Parry and +2 to DX or ST rolls to resist grappling Contests"

I think more broadly giving those bonuses against ANY contest (not just grappling) would make sense, and since AOD:Determined gives +2 to parry that it should double that to +4 to DX or +4 to ST. AOD:Double seems like it should just be the better of 2 rolls...

However this is all just speculation and I can't find anything to back it, so you seem to have found a loophole, Feints utterly disregard the defensive benefits that Defensive Attack or AOD give... aside from free AP if you owe costs...

I rolled 8, which is 6 points under my skill of 14, so my MoS minus your MoS gives me a MoV of 3 and I will suffer no penalties. This means it doesn't cost me any AP... (I wish there was something like "Aggressive Resist Feint" where if the defender wins despite a penalty they could get bonuses to hit the failed feinter... oh well)

Since I didn't spend my 2 free AP that means my pseudowait is untriggered and I get to make my HT roll at start of my next turn, which is now.
I roll a 9 which is 3 under 12, enough to recover 1 AP.

Since you must be in range to feint, and you feinted at skill 16 (a punch or a slam, range C) I'm going to assume you took your free step to close back into combat distance.

I'm making a normal Attack maneuver and choosing a right-handed Uppercut (-1 to skill, I roll against 13 instead of 14) at a Random Hit Location.

I roll a 7, successful hit. Rolling RHL now... I got a 14... your left leg.

However... MA 81:
You can only use Uppercut against the upper body – skull, eye, face, neck, torso, arm – of a standing foe.
Vicky has a valid question.

closest guide for substitution I can think of is B400:
If a random attack comes from directly above, treat “feet” as “hands” and “legs” as “arms.”
Uppercuts don't come from above (they're rising hits) so it's not directly called upon, but it seems to be in the spirit of "stuff that should only hit your upper body, not lower body".

Do you think I should be hitting your left arm instead of your left leg? Or count it as a miss? Or reroll until I get a valid target?

If former, go ahead and defend. If 2nd, it's your turn. If 3rd, please reroll the 3d6 for me until a valid target shows up, and then choose defence.

I remember someone suggestion we should roll stuff like RHL ahead of time before choosing what type of attack, but that seems prone to exploitation... you'd be willing to risk high penalties for a higher-damage move if you were hitting something important!

If you take the interpretation that you can uppercut enemies in the groin because the groin is part of the torso then it would seem strange if you couldn't hit the leg too, the leg IRL actually rises above the torso... even if it isn't lifted, and if someone has thrown a knee or a kick then especially it would be higher than the groin...

Another possibility which occurs to me is to use the Vermiform table (B553) since that excludes legs/feet as results, which would mesh well with the Uppercut restriction. Of course applying the note:
  • For snake-men, treat 7-8 as Right Arm (-2), 13-14 as Left Arm (-2), and 17-18 as Hand (-4).

That seem okay? Or if we do a restricted-target hit against a RHL that ends up restricted, count as a miss?

Last edited by Plane; 01-01-2019 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 01-02-2019, 11:48 AM   #59
ericthered
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
That already controls acrobatic dodge, which is like weird twisting and cartwheels and stuff. Jump is more like the raw explosive power of "move my leg fast". That said, "lift my knee quickly to my chest" sounds more like something specific to Running than to Jumping.

Naw, I'd say it sounds like acrobatics. Or just raw DX. Running is about moving forward quickly. Jumping is about not touching the ground. Acrobatics is about putting your body in unusual situations gracefully.



Quote:
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Rolepla...d-Defense.html was eventually included on page 92 of http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Compendium2/ and seems to fit the bill.

The biggest problem with stuff like this (or with feints/beats) is that to avoid metagaming concerns you pretty much need secret communiques between players and GMs yet with complete notes since after choices are made you can prove they chose what they did.

I know of a tool for this. You make a statement, then run it through an md5 hash generator. You can then post the hash at the time you made the decision. For example:
95fc4dc9c84d4cffcaff9881ee808be2


when its time to reveal the action, you post the phrase:
Quote:
I concentrate defense on my torso
Spacing and capitalization must match, of course. I can then verify that your statement matches your hash, and see that you're being honest. We could cheat by attacks on md5, but that's a LOT more trouble than its worth.


Quote:
Resisting a Feint costs nothing if you win, but costs 1 AP otherwise.

I'm guessing the way it would work is I could pay that out of the 2 free AP I get for defenses, but if you pay ANY (even just 1/2) of the free AP for defenses, it doesn't work like an untriggered wait and give you the HT roll.

I wonder if it works that way for critically successful active defenses (they don't cost AP) since they wouldn't use any of the 2 free AP either?

I'd rule that way, yes. In both cases.


Quote:
Huh... y'know since AOD:Determined giving +2 to parry/block is effectively giving +4 to DX of the underlying skill, it feels like you should get +4 to that skill for resisting feints =/ Wouldn't matter here since I chose "double" of course...

That would work out mathematically. On the other hand, a feint ought to be the proper response to someone who is playing it safe and only defending. I'm not entirely sure if the +2 to parry/block applies to feints by RAW, though I'd certainly allow at least that much in my games.


Quote:
Since you must be in range to feint, and you feinted at skill 16 (a punch or a slam, range C) I'm going to assume you took your free step to close back into combat distance.

In an ideal world, you would have called me out on that before rolling and asked me if I was sure, or told me I was doing something illegal, or that my -2 was missing. But I'll assume you noticed it afterwards. Sure, I burned my step. All out defense is a nice maneuver in the last gasp.



Quote:
Do you think I should be hitting your left arm instead of your left leg? Or count it as a miss? Or reroll until I get a valid target?

As a fourth option, your uppercut is converted to a normal punch to the left leg. I prefer target conversion. Limbs to limbs, everything else to torso. It that your preference as well?



Quote:
I remember someone suggestion we should roll stuff like RHL ahead of time before choosing what type of attack, but that seems prone to exploitation... you'd be willing to risk high penalties for a higher-damage move if you were hitting something important!

I could be interpreted as what weak spots are presented, but I prefer rolling hit location after choosing attack type.


Quote:
That seem okay? Or if we do a restricted-target hit against a RHL that ends up restricted, count as a miss?

I oppose hit locations turning things into misses in close combat (ranged combat is another matter).
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Old 01-02-2019, 02:07 PM   #60
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I know of a tool for this. You make a statement, then run it through an md5 hash generator. You can then post the hash at the time you made the decision. For example:
95fc4dc9c84d4cffcaff9881ee808be2


when its time to reveal the action, you post the phrase:

Spacing and capitalization must match, of course. I can then verify that your statement matches your hash, and see that you're being honest. We could cheat by attacks on md5, but that's a LOT more trouble than its worth.
Sounds interesting, I don't have experience with hash converters... in the suggestion of not revealing feints (ie if your feint had succeeded, I could metagame by taking a Move maneuver to get out of range, forcing you to make a pathetic -5 to hit Move and Attack to benefit from your feint) where a feint is reported as a "miss", this would probably mean that even normal to-hit rolls should also be hashed.

You have the option to report a "miss" without the opponent knowing if it was truly a miss, or just an unrevealed feint.

I would say that only applies to default Feints and Ruses though. Something like a "Beat" seems like i should be obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
In an ideal world, you would have called me out on that before rolling and asked me if I was sure, or told me I was doing something illegal, or that my -2 was missing. But I'll assume you noticed it afterwards. Sure, I burned my step. All out defense is a nice maneuver in the last gasp.
If your feint had succeeded by 3+ points then there could also be the option of allowing you reduce your MoV by 2 so that you had feinted with a kick without needing to take a step.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
As a fourth option, your uppercut is converted to a normal punch to the left leg. I prefer target conversion. Limbs to limbs, everything else to torso. It that your preference as well?
I'm fine with losing my +1 damage and having it target your leg if you are, I just figure you wouldn't want to suffer that -2 for low-line parries.

In that case, choose your active defense, if you want to retreat you gotta pay that AP =/
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