Chameleon and Silence vs. Racial Skill Bonus (Stealth)

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!
I'm trying to figure out, what's the reason for Chameleon [5] and Silence's [5] cost if a Racial Skill Bonus is merely [2]? Sure those Exotic traits give double the bonus while standing still (or if enhanced with Dynamic, for extra 2 points per level, for a total of 4/+1 bonus), but they don't apply to other senses unless they're Extended. The bang for the buck is just too different compared to the RSB, or even just buying Stealth.

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Greetings, all!
I'm trying to figure out, what's the reason for Chameleon [5] and Silence's [5] cost if a Racial Skill Bonus is merely [2]? Sure those Exotic traits give double the bonus while standing still (or if enhanced with Dynamic, for extra 2 points per level, for a total of 4/+1 bonus), but they don't apply to other senses unless they're Extended. The bang for the buck is just too different compared to the RSB, or even just buying Stealth.

Well first up, does Racial Skill Bonus even exist in 4e? You can put 2 points of a skill on the race template of course, but this simply gives every member of the race 2 points, it doesn't add a fixed amount to skill.

For Chameleon, the normal use of Stealth against vision is the motionless case - there often simply isn't anywhere to hide along a line of motion - and that gets a +2. Also, it is probably more talent-like than it looks from too literal a reading, substitute stealth for Stealth and "where being seen is a factor" clearly also applies to Camouflage all the time, and there are other skills it might occasionally modify - Tactics or Survival seem the most likely.

Traditionally penalties like this also apply when you aren't making a Stealth roll but the other guy is making a Vision roll - say when you are far away, or the seeing conditions are bad, though I admit the advantage doesn't actually say that either. It's possible there is also a combat factor that's been considered, though 4e isn't all that clear on modifiers for not being able to see the target well.

Silence on the other hand is a lot harder to justify.

[Collective_Restraint]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Well first up, does Racial Skill Bonus even exist in 4e?

Yes. Racial Skill Bonuses and Penalties - B452.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Collective_Restraint

Yes. Racial Skill Bonuses and Penalties - B452.

Ah, so it is. In that case, the answer is Racial Skill Bonus is just better; it never was intended to be point balanced against the other advantages. The traditional reason is to provide an incentive for players to have their characters conform to a racial sterotype.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Ah, so it is. In that case, the answer is Racial Skill Bonus is just better; it never was intended to be point balanced against the other advantages. The traditional reason is to provide an incentive for players to have their characters conform to a racial sterotype.

Not only it is very un-GURPS-4e-like, but the problem won't go away even if we compare those traits RAW to just buying more Stealth, without the RSB.

[pawsplay]

Let's treat +1 Stealth as a power (4 points/level).

Only while standing still sounds like -40%, since it's more restrictive than only while flying (since many characters can fly and hover). Since it is half strength rather than lost, that's -20%.

Either version with reverse Sense-Based is -20%.

Stealth +2 (Half power when moving, -20%; Sense-based, -20%) [5]

So Silence and Camouflage appear to be priced correctly. The only problem is when you take both; since each has a -20% limitation, they are overpriced together. The answer is obvious, however; if you are hard to see AND hear, why don't you just take more Stealth?

Racial skill bonuses are a bit slippery, but I'll argue that they are GURPSian. Think of it as Usual Background (Stealthy catperson). If the bonus is larger than +2, don't do this.

[sir_pudding]

Chameleon allows you to hide in plain sight, which Stealth doesn't.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Chameleon allows you to hide in plain sight, which Stealth doesn't.

I don't understand. I see nothing under Chameleon that suggests it works in any other way than as an adjunct to Stealth. I see nothing about hiding in plain sight.

[Lonewulf]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

Let's treat +1 Stealth as a power (4 points/level).

Only while standing still sounds like -40%, since it's more restrictive than only while flying (since many characters can fly and hover). Since it is half strength rather than lost, that's -20%.

Either version with reverse Sense-Based is -20%.

Stealth +2 (Half power when moving, -20%; Sense-based, -20%) [5]

You lost me at "Let's treat +1 Stealth as a power (4 points/level)", and just went downhill from there.

So Silence and Camouflage appear to be priced correctly.

???

Aren't bonuses to stealth treated as part of a racial skill package? As far as I know, that functions like Talent, which seems to on average give an average of 1 to 2 point cost to each +1 to individual skill.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

You lost me at "Let's treat +1 Stealth as a power (4 points/level)", and just went downhill from there.

After DX+1, Stealth costs 4 points per level.

Aren't bonuses to stealth treated as part of a racial skill package? As far as I know, that functions like Talent, which seems to on average give an average of 1 to 2 point cost to each +1 to individual skill.

Yes, but I was pricing them against someone who does not have such a racial skill package. Racial skill bonuses pretty much always win, since they are NOT price balanced. But a given skill may or may not be a large investment for a member of the race, so there is a reason for the rationale. it just shouldn't be abused.