Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-12-2014, 02:06 PM   #1
Jinumon
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

Hello all!
Got another question for ya.
I've been working on a Fantasy World for a while now, and I have multiple forms of "magic" that interacts. I have traditional GURPS Magic, representing the "scientific" manipulation of mana, Alchemy as the solid, physical magic that exists in a more-or-less solid sense, effect-shaping Path-Magic in the form of the subtle miracles performed by priests (divine magic), Verb-Noun Rune Magic as a shamanistic sort of tree-magic, and finally, Realm-Based Syntactic Magic as an ancient, unknowable art of the underpinnings of reality.

I'll start with a primer on the meta-physics of the world, skip to the next paragraph if you really don't give a crap. So we've got this planet, and it's coursing with natural magical energy, called Mana. It's covered in life, and is populated by plants, animals, and natural spirits that embody mountains, forests, and rivers, not unlike Miyazaki's world in Princess Mononoke. Everything acted in accordance to it's nature, and life was pretty good all around. Then the Gods got involved. They created humans apart from Mana, with there own form of life energy called Soul. Humans are the only beings capable of changing their nature, and the natural forces of the world retreated, although they are still around (just more reclusive). Humans have spread across the planet, and some are capable of manipulating Mana (those with Magery) in the form of Spells and Runes. Mundane men can call forth the inherent Mana in materials with Alchemy. Priests call directly upon their deities in the form of Miracles, powered by Soul. Legends hint at an ancient art called Naming, that was once understood by all natural things of the world, a power that even predates Mana itself, a sort of quintessence of the thing itself, but there hasn't been a Namer in hundreds of years.

Okay, now on to the problems I'm having. A lot of stuff I know, I've got it all figured out except for two, the Effect-Shaping Path (which I call Miracles), and the Realm-Based Syntactic (which I call Naming).

Neither of these two systems use Magery; Miracles require Power Investiture, and Naming (while extremely difficult) is possible for anyone who comes to grasp the incomprehensible nature of Names.

The problem with Miracles is the relatively limited information provided about Effect-Shaping in GURPS Thaumatology. I don't want to use an Energy-Accumulating method, as a truly devout priest merely requests the aid of his God, and is provided it, free of FP. I don't yet have GURPS Ritual Path Magic, but from looking at the preview, it only really expands on the notion of spending FP. Any suggestions as far as the creation new Effect Shaping Rituals for use in this context?

Naming has also proved difficult. I'll admit that the idea is pretty much directly plagiarized from Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicle, and for those of you who haven't read the books, it's effectively learning the Name (capital N) of a thing, and you can gain mastery over it. The two main problems here is "dividing up the universe" and the fact that Naming doesn't benefit from Magery. Each "thing" has a Name (i.e. Stone, Wind, Water, Fire, Iron), and dividing the universe into so many subjects seems impossible. It would even be (theoretically) possible to learn the Name of an individual, and in doing so command them entirely. The important thing to keep in mind about Naming is that it doesn't draw any power from Mana or Soul; the Name of a thing is the thing, in a more real sense than our own human senses can perceive it. The Name of a thing encompasses it's existence on a level even more fundamental level than Mana (which is sort of like the field all things give off, aside from humans).

Also, I don't know what Attributes I should base these systems on. The Gods are notoriously fickle, and may deign to grant a simpleton their favor for no reason mortals can understand. Naming requires the sort of mad-man's logic that seems at least somewhat contradictory to straight IQ ([IQ + Per]/2 maybe?)

I'm sort of rambling, I've got a lot of things bouncing around in my head.
In Summary: Effect-Shaping has too few rituals, I don't know how to divide Syntactic Magic into Realms, and I don't know what Attributes to base these systems on.

Woo. That was a long one. Once again, I appreciate any feedback any of you can give me, and I'm extremely grateful for the support of the GURPS community. Please and thank you!
Jinumon
Jinumon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2014, 03:19 PM   #2
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

Well, your number of Realms problem is simply answered. One, Names. Names lets you do everything, so it is the sole realm.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2014, 08:05 PM   #3
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

For Effect Shaping you just have to eyeball it and make up your miracles.
Each God should have some relative to their nature.
No rules for how to make them up for either form of Book/Path magic which is a big reason RPM was so successful.

Ghost dancer has posted he has something he submitted for Pyramid that might fit your desires but no telling when that will show.
I have something too but it would require a lot of work to adapt to the system you describe.

For Syntactic go with 1 Realm which makes them nice and expensive.
Then each Name is a perk or skill.
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2014, 08:27 AM   #4
Jinumon
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

.... Bump....
Jinumon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2014, 09:10 AM   #5
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

Well, we've given you some starting points, but we can't write the whole thing for you. If you could explain what you don't understand about the answers, or otherwise engage with them a bit, we might get further. The urge to bump should be resisted: try asking more interesting questions.

As regards attributes, you said yourself that there wasn't a rational basis visible within the world for why some people were good at Naming and others weren't. So you have freedom of choice: inventing a required Talent would be one solution, and you could base skills on 10+Talent rather than an attribute.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2014, 04:30 PM   #6
Jinumon
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

Okay.

Quote:
Well, your number of Realms problem is simply answered. One, Names. Names lets you do everything, so it is the sole realm.
I don't think this is really an option. There are people who master specific Names, and while there are those who learn a whole plethora of them, they are rare, and even they don't know all Names. Mastery of each individual name is a big achievement in itself. Learning each new Name shouldn't be only a point in a skill or perk.

Quote:
For Effect Shaping you just have to eyeball it and make up your miracles.
Each God should have some relative to their nature.
No rules for how to make them up for either form of Book/Path magic which is a big reason RPM was so successful.
Is the information in RPM applicable to Effect Shaping as well as Energy Accumulating? If it is, I figure I'll need to pick up the book.

Jinumon
Jinumon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2014, 05:20 PM   #7
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinumon View Post
I don't think this is really an option. There are people who master specific Names, and while there are those who learn a whole plethora of them, they are rare, and even they don't know all Names. Mastery of each individual name is a big achievement in itself. Learning each new Name shouldn't be only a point in a skill or perk.
OK, but that gives you a different problem, which has remained unsolved for centuries, and which I thus considered worth avoiding.

Names clearly form some kind of hierarchy: you're a citizen of some country, a resident of a district, and you have an individual name. But you're also a mammal, a human, and a member of some ethnic group. Both of those name hierarchies validly apply to you. How do they relate to each other? This problem is usually faced by designers of library catalogue systems, and they don't have a good and all-encompassing solution. The nearest thing to a standard AFAIK, the Dewey Decimal system, presents a rather strange view of the structure of human knowledge and takes some work to use.

If you split Names into multiple realms, you have the problem of trying to make the realms roughly equally useful, and not having much cross-connection between them. That's quite hard.

The fiction you're basing this on probably didn't show these problems. An author has two important advantages over a game designer or GM. He can chose the events he portrays to avoid difficulties, and he doesn't have independent characters in his story who will pry into the details of his reasoning, trying to get the best value for their character points, and whom he can't just tell to shut up.

A possible idea for this system, irrespective of the number of realms you use, is to make the generality of Names relate to the level of Realm advantage that a caster has. So for example, level 1 might only let you use very general names, and you night need level 5 for individual names. Or maybe the other way round, if you feel individual names are easier to use than general ones.

Quote:
Is the information in RPM applicable to Effect Shaping as well as Energy Accumulating? If it is, I figure I'll need to pick up the book.
RPM and Path/Book are not the same system, and neither was used to design the other.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2014, 11:07 PM   #8
zoncxs
 
zoncxs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
Default Re: [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

I would not use names as a relam based magic system but a power based one. Learning the true name of something, or someone, gives you complete controlep and power over them and allows you to do many things. Thaumatolgy book has this in it (power of names or something) and each word can coat 10 cp. I would raise that point cost or lower it depending on what I want to do.

As for the effects? That is what techniques are for! Have the plkayer buy a new skill, called the same as the name, and use that to make techniques.

Sounds familiar? It should since this is what GURPS Pisonic powers books uses. That is what I would do for names.
zoncxs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2014, 11:01 AM   #9
DangerousThing
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinumon View Post
I don't think this is really an option. There are people who master specific Names, and while there are those who learn a whole plethora of them, they are rare, and even they don't know all Names. Mastery of each individual name is a big achievement in itself. Learning each new Name shouldn't be only a point in a skill or perk.
If I were doing it I would require a CP to learn a name and what can be done with it.

However, after Chargen, I'd require namers to go out in the world or to hit the books or summon nasty creatures to learn new names.

Personally I think the players will really love the system, if you can maintain the balance between character growth and their expectations.
__________________
A little learning is a dangerous thing.
Warning: Invertebrate Punnster - Spinelessly Unable to Resist a Pun
Dangerous Thoughts, my blog about GURPS and life.
DangerousThing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2014, 11:20 AM   #10
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: [THM] Realm-Based Syntactic Magic and Effect Shaping Paths

Another way to do Names would be to switch from Realm-based syntactic to Verb-Noun syntactic. That seems to fit more naturally in some ways, and the nouns table on p185 of Thaumatology forms a plausible starting point for a names heiriarchy.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
magery, magic, ritual path magic, syntactic magic, thaumatology

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.