So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

[giant.robot]

I don't buy into the ideas from earlier that electronics somehow rot after just a few years. I deal with a lot of old electronics and I regularly see stuff that's 30-40 years old work just fine. In fact just a month ago I pulled some PCs out of an old metal shed, one of them has literally been in the back of the shed for twenty years, and all of them booted up just fine. They hadn't been specially set up for storage or anything. The shed is just a crappy steel shed and all the PCs were exposed to dryness, humidity, and Southern California summer temperatures.

Now of the handful of systems about a third had hard drives that are dying but functional enough to recover the data off them. None of the internal wiring deteriorated, the fans hadn't seized up, and they were all serviceable. They were also in a place with no long durations of freezing temperatures.

I've got a lot of old crap that had been lying around for years and was fine once I got my grubby hands on it.

Consumer electronics left on your lawn won't fare that well but there's millions of bits of electronics that will likely survive your apocalypse. A dedicated salvage effort would be able to get lots of stuff up and running provided there's some electricity. If there's a concerted effort before the apocalypse to preserve electronics it's easy enough to do.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by khorboth

Another thing to remember is that humans will pack-bond with ANYTHING... A group adopting the escaped alligator snapping turtle and managing to keep it alive and getting it a home near one of the warm trees... not actually out of character of us.

Florida family adopts American Alligator in the swamp in their back yard? Feeds it, lets their kids swim with it, rely on it to scare off other Alligators? Yeah. Humans. (They let the kids swim in the water when it was near, they didn't let the kids get close enough to touch it or harass it... but since the alligator can close that distance insanely quickly I still think they're nuts.)

Fortunately for Humans, many other animals are smart enough to figure out "reliable source of food", which can be a good way to form a relationship of sorts. The alligator above has seized territory around the familys home because WOW! Great food source! My territory! He defends it from other alligators because its HIS territory, not because he wants to protect the hoomons. That actually can be "good enough", but you want to hold your part of the bargain/system very strictly - it relies on the animal never going hungry, people not pestering it, and people having a good eye for alligator body language and respecting it.

Basically, if you let the large predator run the relationship, and treat it like a giant killing machine, it can work out. Never, ever, ever turn your back on a big cat, even if you raised it from a cub, and never ever expect an alligator to be sentimental.

[Flyndaran]

Crocodilians are by far the smartest reptile barring birds, of course.
Some can become almost domestic. But if one does eat their human, few will act shocked.
We all know that even dogs bred over thousands of years can sometimes go bonkers for no reason.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Florida family adopts American Alligator in the swamp in their back yard? Feeds it, lets their kids swim with it, rely on it to scare off other Alligators? Yeah. Humans. (They let the kids swim in the water when it was near, they didn't let the kids get close enough to touch it or harass it... but since the alligator can close that distance insanely quickly I still think they're nuts.)

Fortunately for Humans, many other animals are smart enough to figure out "reliable source of food", which can be a good way to form a relationship of sorts. The alligator above has seized territory around the familys home because WOW! Great food source! My territory! He defends it from other alligators because its HIS territory, not because he wants to protect the hoomons. That actually can be "good enough", but you want to hold your part of the bargain/system very strictly - it relies on the animal never going hungry, people not pestering it, and people having a good eye for alligator body language and respecting it.

Basically, if you let the large predator run the relationship, and treat it like a giant killing machine, it can work out. Never, ever, ever turn your back on a big cat, even if you raised it from a cub, and never ever expect an alligator to be sentimental.

But keep in mind that feeding a wild animal can be a double-edges sword. They come to associate people with food, which can trigger them to attack - especially if food is not immediately forthcoming when they see a human. This can be particularly problematic with reptiles, because they don't really have the brainpower to do target recognition and targeting at the same time. Once they trigger in on food and go into attack mode, they strike at the center of whatever is moving. If you were holding the food in your hand, this likely means they target your hand.

Luke

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Crocodilians are by far the smartest reptile barring birds, of course.
Some can become almost domestic. But if one does eat their human, few will act shocked.

I'd call it even between monitor lizards and crocs. Both exhibit levels of intelligence significantly beyond that of a typical snake, lizard, or turtle. Either way, you still need to stay wary even around "tame" ones.

Luke

[Flyndaran]

That's probably a good idea for any animal that could quickly eat your face regardless of tameness.

[franghiskhan]

I caught this thread 16 pages in, but I didn't see any mention of either freeze-dried foods or bio-diesel.

Freeze dried foods under optimal conditions (cool and dry) should last around 30 years, and that could probably be stretched, especially in a cinematic game.

Out on farms, if they weren't disturbed by bandits (or whatever), farmers might continue making bio-diesel and maintaining their own vehicles for quite some time.

As far as zoo animals, I would think with food becoming scarce, most of them would be hunted to extinction rather quickly.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Thanks for getting us back on track. The animals thing derailed even me (the OP). XD

So how hard is biodiesel to make? Is it basically just rendering fats?

Another question - how hard do you think relearning how to be a blacksmith might be? I assume trial and error will eventually get you there eventually, but I'm curious how that skill might be "discovered."

I've decided TL is 4/8, but what's that mean to a smith exactly? Could they reasonably expect to have access to power hammers if they have a generator (outfitted to run on biodiesel) or some renewable energy source.

Another crucial question: medical supplies - what might survive?

[(E)]

Biodiesel
First up the more modern the diesel engine the higher quality of fuel required. Older diesel engines can be run on fuel the quality of automotive waste oil (if heated).

Ingredients
Lipids, (animal fat, vegetable oils, vegetable waxes etc)
Methanol (Wood alcohol)
Thats the basic recipe but other ingredients can be added to improve quality for higher quality motors.
Caustic soda (Lye)
Sodium methoxide (methanol plus sodium)
There are likely other options when it comes to additives.

Lots of variations depending onbthe source of the lipids.

The sodium is the more difficult product to aquire (1100 degrees plus electrodes)

Accurate measuring equipment (scales and thermometers)
Protective equipment for some of the additives.
Filtering equipment
Equipment to process the raw material into a more usable form.
Wood still

Collect oils/fats then filter and cook. After that add any additives in very precise amounts, mix and serve.

[giant.robot]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Thanks for getting us back on track. The animals thing derailed even me (the OP). XD

So how hard is biodiesel to make? Is it basically just rendering fats?

Another question - how hard do you think relearning how to be a blacksmith might be? I assume trial and error will eventually get you there eventually, but I'm curious how that skill might be "discovered."

I've decided TL is 4/8, but what's that mean to a smith exactly? Could they reasonably expect to have access to power hammers if they have a generator (outfitted to run on biodiesel) or some renewable energy source.

Another crucial question: medical supplies - what might survive?

Paper books will definitely survive. There's thousands of public libraries, book stores, and university libraries...basically everywhere. Not to mention people's personal collections. There's a lot of subjects that won't have to be rediscovered in their entirety. Even things like blacksmithing that are extremely niche subjects have books and documentation that people can read to get up to speed on.

Medical supplies don't survive very long, many medicines are fairly fragile and require constant refrigeration. Stuff that doesn't will end up getting used and will eventually get used up with no infrastructure to replenish stocks. That being said, like other subjects, medicine is well documented in nice sturdy books. A lot of medical knowledge can be relearned and does not need to be rediscovered. There's also basics like first aid and antiseptics are just part of basic modern knowledge and wouldn't be lost. Medicine might regress to TL6 but not TL4 except maybe in very isolated places.