Design of a sulfuric-acid-based-life defensive mechanism

Hide · 12-09-2019, 12:24 PM

There are animals which produce acids for defense. Certain ants produce formic acid as a defensive mechanism.

Formic acid is "synthetized" in specialized cells of the formicinae ants. It results from acetate ions produced during the energy acquiring metabolism of glucose (Krebs cycle), thanks to their diets rich in sugar.

In fact, I am not very familiar with bio-chemistry. So I would like to check this idea with you: I was reading GURPS template toolkit 2 and found about "strongly acid" life forms. Roughly speaking they are not vulnerable to acids, but they are vulnerable to water and neutral aqueous solutions.

That said, I believe sulfuric-acid-life (SAL) could have a similar mechanism to that of ants (using water, instead of acid).

Maybe these creatures can produce water (yes, normal water) or milk to protect themselves from other SAL creatures. And interestingly, these would be useless against regular water-based life (they already have their strongly acidic bodily fluids, however). So...

What would be the process for a SAL creature to produce water/milk?
At first I thought these creatures could be like the Xenomorph. But AFAIK, they are immune to water! Assuming the Xenomorph are SAL creatures, how could I give them immunity to water (and neutral aqueous solutions)?

Thank you!

whswhs · 12-09-2019, 01:05 PM

Milk seems extremely unlikely, as it's a specific product of biological evolution that contains a mixture of proteins, carbohydrates (lactose), lipids [fat], and various inorganic ions. Water is more plausible, but it would more likely be a solution of water in sulfuric acid, just as human stomach fluid is a solution of hydrochloric acid in water. Of course, that would mean that the fluid would still be somewhat acid, and might well be a strong acid, though you could handwave that and call it a weak acid.

Anaraxes · 12-09-2019, 04:54 PM

There are some Earthly bacteria, "sulfur oxidizing bacteria" (Acidithiobacillus), that metabolize sulfides to sulfuric acid. It's mostly a problem for humans when it causes corrosion of concrete and steel in wastewater treatment plants. But it might be a starting point for research into the biochemical details of how the H2S gets turned into H2S04.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogen...fide_corrosion

For game purposes, I'd probably just handwave the details.

If you want acid that's dangerous to PCs, you might also look into hydrofluoric (which is particularly dangerous to human flesh), aqua regia (hydrochloric + nitric), which is good at dissolving metals, even "noble" ones like gold (your treasure melts! muahahaha!), or Caro's acid / "piranha solution" (sulfuric + hydrogen peroxide), which is not only highly corrosive to organic compounds (like PCs), but rapidly releases heat and/or explodes, as well as releasing hot atomic oxygen eager to do more burnination.

whswhs · 12-09-2019, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

If you want acid that's dangerous to PCs, you might also look into hydrofluoric (which is particularly dangerous to human flesh), aqua regia (hydrochloric + nitric), which is good at dissolving metals, even "noble" ones like gold (your treasure melts! muahahaha!), or Caro's acid / "piranha solution" (sulfuric + hydrogen peroxide), which is not only highly corrosive to organic compounds (like PCs), but rapidly releases heat and/or explodes, as well as releasing hot atomic oxygen eager to do more burnination.

Most of the chemistry papers I've edited that mention piranha solution contain very pointed warnings about the need for caution in preparing, handling, and using it. But apparently it's the last word in cleaning glassware.

Anaraxes · 12-09-2019, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs

piranha solution... But apparently it's the last word in cleaning glassware.

Also used in the semiconductor manufacturing industry, which also uses chlorine trifluoride. Neither stuff to play with at home. But when they want to clean their vapor deposition chambers and silicon wafers, they want them clean.

I imagine a piranha solution-using creature would synthesize the peroxide and acid separately and spray them somehow from double nozzles, letting them mix on the target. Just having that stuff around an organic lifeform seems pretty implausible. But it's scary.

Perhaps the adventurers find out why the warriors of the ancient empire were using those obsidian weapons and stone armor, as well as why the blades are still sparkling clean after all these years.

12-09-2019, 12:24 PM	#1
Hide Join Date: Nov 2016	Design of a sulfuric-acid-based-life defensive mechanism There are animals which produce acids for defense. Certain ants produce formic acid as a defensive mechanism. Formic acid is "synthetized" in specialized cells of the formicinae ants. It results from acetate ions produced during the energy acquiring metabolism of glucose (Krebs cycle), thanks to their diets rich in sugar. In fact, I am not very familiar with bio-chemistry. So I would like to check this idea with you: I was reading GURPS template toolkit 2 and found about "strongly acid" life forms. Roughly speaking they are not vulnerable to acids, but they are vulnerable to water and neutral aqueous solutions. That said, I believe sulfuric-acid-life (SAL) could have a similar mechanism to that of ants (using water, instead of acid). Maybe these creatures can produce water (yes, normal water) or milk to protect themselves from other SAL creatures. And interestingly, these would be useless against regular water-based life (they already have their strongly acidic bodily fluids, however). So... What would be the process for a SAL creature to produce water/milk? At first I thought these creatures could be like the Xenomorph. But AFAIK, they are immune to water! Assuming the Xenomorph are SAL creatures, how could I give them immunity to water (and neutral aqueous solutions)? Thank you! __________________ - 画龍点睛。Ｈｉｄｅ。

12-09-2019, 01:05 PM	#2
whswhs Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS	Re: Design of a sulfuric-acid-based-life defensive mechanism Milk seems extremely unlikely, as it's a specific product of biological evolution that contains a mixture of proteins, carbohydrates (lactose), lipids [fat], and various inorganic ions. Water is more plausible, but it would more likely be a solution of water in sulfuric acid, just as human stomach fluid is a solution of hydrochloric acid in water. Of course, that would mean that the fluid would still be somewhat acid, and might well be a strong acid, though you could handwave that and call it a weak acid. __________________ Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more.

12-09-2019, 04:54 PM	#3
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Design of a sulfuric-acid-based-life defensive mechanism There are some Earthly bacteria, "sulfur oxidizing bacteria" (Acidithiobacillus), that metabolize sulfides to sulfuric acid. It's mostly a problem for humans when it causes corrosion of concrete and steel in wastewater treatment plants. But it might be a starting point for research into the biochemical details of how the H2S gets turned into H2S04. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogen...fide_corrosion For game purposes, I'd probably just handwave the details. If you want acid that's dangerous to PCs, you might also look into hydrofluoric (which is particularly dangerous to human flesh), aqua regia (hydrochloric + nitric), which is good at dissolving metals, even "noble" ones like gold (your treasure melts! muahahaha!), or Caro's acid / "piranha solution" (sulfuric + hydrogen peroxide), which is not only highly corrosive to organic compounds (like PCs), but rapidly releases heat and/or explodes, as well as releasing hot atomic oxygen eager to do more burnination.