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Old 11-25-2017, 03:16 PM   #41
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
I'm not certain why people keep saying "rental cost". FG2 can be purchased as a one time purchase instead of a monthly rental fee. Right now, because of Black Friday, the prices for the licenses are rather cheap.

You can purchase an "Ultimate License" - normally $149, now for $111.75. The normal license is $39, but today, it's $29.25

So, you don't HAVE to rent the software if you would rather buy it. The rental is for those who'd prefer not to pay up front, the full cost involved.
I can buy four copies of TableTop Simulator for $30 right now.
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Old 11-25-2017, 03:30 PM   #42
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

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I can buy four copies of TableTop Simulator for $30 right now.
I've tried Tabletop Simulator... I'd rather not get violently ill while running my games. Something about it just makes me nauseous.
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:04 PM   #43
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

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I've tried Tabletop Simulator... I'd rather not get violently ill while running my games. Something about it just makes me nauseous.
Wow, that is not a critique I've heard about it before. I'm really sorry to hear it induces that state in you. None of my players have ever complained about even a mild discomfort. I don't even get nauseous in it when I'm playing from my Oculus Rift.

Which is another advantage--I can play in VR, giving me an amazing amount of immersion. Even to the point of being told to get my fat head out of the way.
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

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I can buy four copies of TableTop Simulator for $30 right now.
if that does what you want it to do, then that's a good price no? ;)

The real question is - does it do the same thing that FG2 does?

There is a reason why Car Manufacturers sell low end cars lacking in certain features that the high end car models have. That people want a car with four wheels, an engine, comfortable seats, etc is a given. Some want a cheaper car and are content with what their car does. Others - want the high end model and are willing to pay for the extra features.

Analogy wise - does TTS offer the high end features for the price it is set at? If so, then I would suggest going with TTS. If not, then I'd suggest sampling what FG2 can offer and compare it against TTS. Having a log of everything done in the game (die rolls both open and secret), conversations of the player and of the GM - all in HTML format is a nice thing from my perspective. If TTS does that, then good. If it doesn't, then I'd miss having it if I used TTS.

Different strokes for different folks is all I can say.
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:44 PM   #45
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

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does it do the same thing that FG2 does?
Just a nitpick, but it hasn't been FG2 for several years. They even stopped calling it anything but FG because you can't get Fantasy Grounds 1 or 2 anymore, and 3 has been out for quite a while now.

That said, I think their standard abbreviation for their upcoming (hopefully soon) Unity version is a bit odd, because every time I see FGU I think Fantasy Games Unlimited.
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:53 PM   #46
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

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if that does what you want it to do, then that's a good price no? ;)

The real question is - does it do the same thing that FG2 does?
And that is the crux of the situation.

The short answer is no. It does much, much more than FG can do. I don't see anything in FG, that I want, that TTS can't do. TTS doesn't tell me what I can or can't do. It just does what I tell it to do. It's a sandbox and a toy box. A lot like GURPS.

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Analogy wise - does TTS offer the high end features for the price it is set at? If so, then I would suggest going with TTS. If not, then I'd suggest sampling what FG2 can offer and compare it against TTS. Having a log of everything done in the game (die rolls both open and secret), conversations of the player and of the GM - all in HTML format is a nice thing from my perspective. If TTS does that, then good. If it doesn't, then I'd miss having it if I used TTS.
I've gotten more than the money I've paid for the multiple copies of TTS I've bought for my players out of it.

Not using text as my method of communication with my players, I can't imagine a log being terribly relevant. If I want that, I'll record my Skype stream. But, yes, I could have it export all of our game's chat--not that we use it. If I use the built-in, chat-based die roller, then yes, I can have it log all of them. But, we prefer the physics-based dice instead of RNG-based dice. If I want to roll dice in secret, I can do that in my personal area. People can see the dice being rolled, but only myself and the GM (if i'm not the GM) can see the results.

I would not spend $150 for VTT software, then blow ~$20 on GURPS plugins for it.
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:59 PM   #47
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

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But, we prefer the physics-based dice instead of RNG-based dice. If I want to roll dice in secret, I can do that in my personal area. People can see the dice being rolled, but only myself and the GM (if i'm not the GM) can see the results.
I can understand the cost issue, but the dice in FG are physics based as well and not RNG*. Secret or not is doable in more or less the same way, as well as by setting options. As well as an optional dice tower.

*Roll20 claims a truly random RNG based on atomic decay or some such, but my experience has not seemed particularly random. Then again, I don't find real world dice to be particularly random. We learned long ago that a skilled player can manipulate how they land even from a cup.
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Old 11-25-2017, 05:02 PM   #48
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

Oh, one other little "features" in FG, you can spin certain dice intentionally, and apparently they didn't realize some of the other dice can spin unintentionally.
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Old 11-25-2017, 05:05 PM   #49
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

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I think something that really needs to be discussed is, “what do we want and need in a GURPS VTT?”
Good question. Here's my list.

Absolute Must Haves
* Stability. Having the VTT crash during a game session must be an extremely rare event, not more than once per hundreds of hours of play.
* Performance. There should never be more than a 1 second delay between initiating an action (rolling dice, moving a token, whatever) and getting a response.
* Chat interface. The chat interface needs display who is currently talking and make it easy for the GM to differentiate between NPCs, the GM as the rules guy, the GM as the game judge, and the GM as a person make out of character comments. Everyone needs to be able to easily put text in bold and italics. It must be easy to scroll back through the chat log and save it to an external file.
* Die roller. There must be a configurable die roller with a quick to learn syntax that can roll just about number or size of dice, add or subtract modifiers, and compare that against a target number.
* Map interface: It must be quick and easy, using the computer's native file interface or something similar, to grab an image file and use it as a map background. There must be support for hex grids of arbitrary and adjustable size. The map has to have multiple layers, including one that is visible only to the GM.
* Token interface: It must be quick and easy, using the computer's native file interface or something similar, to grab an image file and use it as a token. Tokens need to have facing indicators and need to be rotatable and resizable. It must be easy to change the image for an existing token. There must be a way to indicate common states (stunned, unconscious, whatever) on each token.
* Draw interface: There need to be tools for drawing on the map with a reasonable sensible toolset (free hand, straight lines, boxes, ovals). It must be possible to draw separate lines on each layer of the map, and erase them separately.
* Vision and Fog of War: There must be an easy interface that controls the field of vision for each token, as well as options to turn off vision or to share vision. There must be a way to indicate that certain parts of the map block vision. There should be an option to implement fog of war, where parts of the map that tokens have seen but can no longer seen are grayed out without entirely disappearing from sight.
* Macro language: There should be a macro language that can automate common tasks. It must be a simple imperative language with a straightforward syntax, not a functional language based on Scheme. It must be possible to share macros between different users.
* Setup and Complexity. It must be possible for a GM to draw some lines on a blank map, put down some tokens, and start playing. More advanced frameworks that automate stuff are wonderful but the GM should not have to engage with the framework in order to run the game.
* Communication between VTT instances should be based on http or some other open protocol.
* Easy login: It should be easy for a new player to connect to an existing game. It must also be easy to make a game private.
* Multiplatform support: The VTT must run on Windows, Macs, Linux, and tablets.
* Total cost of ownership: 7 players, 2 of whom rotate as GMs, must be able to use the VTT with a total outlay of less than $140 (this is about the same cost as GCA4). If the TCO is higher, the VTT better be spectacular.

Nice to have
* Support for multiple layers on the same map, including the ability to have tokens on different z-levels and have the map do something sensible.
* Full 3-D tokens and map support as an option.
* Support for multiple different types of visions, including the ability to block different types of visions and indicate that only certain tokens can see a token that is nominally in view.
* A better macro language should be extendable with Python or some other common scripting language, and use Python or other common scripting language syntax.
* It should be possible to specify an editor or IDE for the scripting language.
* Support for sounds, including the GM's ability to mute people playing sounds.
* 3-d dice rolling. I don't care; some people love this.

I'm glad that TTS works for Mark Skarr, but my artistic ability is limited to gross manipulation of 2-D images in GIMP. I don't need or want a VTT that requires everything I do be in 3-D.

Anyway. That's the things I want and value in a VTT. MapTools hits most of the must haves (the connection protocol and ease of log-on needs work). FG2, last I checked, is too expensive with out adding value on the things I value.
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Old 11-25-2017, 05:48 PM   #50
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Default Re: Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

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This part feels really strange to me. CPU load while running a game on FG, for me, runs about 1.9%. Roll20 just doing setup is closer to 9%.

Roll20 is about twice the RAM usage, but doesn't have the 32bit RAM limitation that FG has at current.

Edit: I will add that FG is, long term, considerably cheaper than Roll20 if you want any of the bells and whistles available from Roll20. A feature comparison chart.

Edit II: the features will vary by ruleset and how complete they are for coding. The GURPS community ruleset is still in development. However most features you'd have to subscribe for with Roll20 are inherent in the FG program.
Thanks for the link to the comparison chart!

The big thing FG has over Roll20 is official support. For a bunch of games I'm not running. Some of the things they say Roll20 doesn't have like Rollable Tables, you can build in Roll20 pretty easily.

I think one of the big differences for me is this...according to their own comparison chart. FG you cannot host free players unless you have the $149 Ultimate version. On the other hand, even the most basic Roll20 allows you to host free players. I want to stream some RPGs, and that may well mean a variety of players. I don't want them to have to pay for FG (or me to pay for the ultimate version) just to play together for a short stream. But also, I'm not going for FG until Unity comes out and I wouldn't have to run it through WINE anyway.

TTS seems like a LOT of work to set up 3D stuff.
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