[GURPS Basic] Why no farming mechanic?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Its also that writing up good generic Farming rules would require training and research into economic history. That isn't a primary skillset of any of the major GURPS authors except Matt Riggsby, it leads into the swamps of the TL and income rules which work poorly at modelling preindustrial societies, and the sales would be unlikely to be enough to pay even a few cents a word. So they were left to some Pyramid 2e articles (with a title like "Lord of the Manor"), and now to the Low Tech Companions and these Pyramid 3e articles.

The problem with just going by economic history is that the end product will end up covering only that which was, and not that which could have been. Most likely it's be 99% feudalism and manorialism and thus ignore the systems and structures that came before that, and fail to provide mechanics for gradually transitioning from one kind of system to the other, with or against the will of the lord characters who own the land and/or the workers who toil on the land.

[WaterAndWindSpirit]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The problem with just going by economic history is that the end product will end up covering only that which was, and not that which could have been. Most likely it's be 99% feudalism and manorialism and thus ignore the systems and structures that came before that, and fail to provide mechanics for gradually transitioning from one kind of system to the other, with or against the will of the lord characters who own the land and/or the workers who toil on the land.

Also, it ignores supernatural abilities. In a setting where supernatural abilities exist *cough*Fantasy*cough*DungeonFantasy*cough*, what would be the effect of a magic wheelbarrow that can hold much more stuff than it's volume indicates? Or a spell that creates water or purifies the soil of any toxins that might be lurking here? Or necromancy that kills various kinds of parasites but leave the plants alone?

How would Keeper Mercury's tricks for efficient farming from Dungeon Keeper Ami work in a GURPS game? That kind of stuff.

[Stormcrow]

Farming Mechanic (32 points)

Primary Attributes: ST 11 [10]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 11 [20]; HT 10 [0].
Secondary Characteristics: Dmg 1d-1/1d+1; BL 24; HP 11 [0]; Will 10 [-5]; Per 10 [-5]; FP 10 [0]; Basic Speed 5.00 [0]; Basic Move 5 [0].
Primary Skills: Mechanic (Non-vehicular Farm Equipment) (A) IQ+1 [4]–12; Mechanic (two vehicles from this list) (A) IQ+1 [4]–12 each.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ego Archive

That last sentence of mine I could take or leave, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of skills in basic, that don't actually have any rules mechanics associated to them. Things like Jeweler and Finance, don't really have any more mechanics than Gardening, but if someone was interested in a more complete mechanic for Finance, for their wall street investing game, I'd rather have suggestions over questions of why they want to do it.

But I haven't seen anyone ask "Why would you want to do that?" All that I've seen is people saying, "But it makes sense that Farming isn't covered in depth in the Basic Set," and sometimes, "Here is a supplement that does address this."

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

I was at least expecting (and was completely ok with) a basic abstraction system like "you can support S people at T Tech Level +/- your degree's of success or failure multiplied by U% on your farming roll modified for environmental factors like -V for W or +X for Y"

This sounds to me more like what are usually called "realm management" rules than a skill description for an individual farmer. Occasionally, requests for such come up from people that want to run that sort of game of kingdoms more than small bands of adventurers.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

it leads into the swamps of the TL and income rules which work poorly at modelling preindustrial societies

Not to mention the fens of industrial economies. We still farm. Rules that work for Stone Age gatherers aren't the same as for Bronze Age Egypt or medieval England or 18th century Prussia or Meiji Japan or Weird War II or modern-day TL8, never mind Transhuman Space, the Solar Patrol, Star Trek with and without replicators, Star Wars, and the Traveller Imperium.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by WaterAndWindSpirit

Also, it ignores supernatural abilities. In a setting where supernatural abilities exist *cough*Fantasy*cough*DungeonFantasy*cough*, what would be the effect of a magic wheelbarrow that can hold much more stuff than it's volume indicates? Or a spell that creates water or purifies the soil of any toxins that might be lurking here? Or necromancy that kills various kinds of parasites but leave the plants alone?

GURPS Fantasy contains estimates of the effects of several GURPS Magic spells on agricultural yields, if you have one mage for each hundred peasants and can call on them to join in ceremonial magic. The short answer, though, is that yields go up so much that the society no longer fits the historical model of medieval peasant farming that's basic to so many rpg campaigns; you're going to have to do serious worldbuilding to figure out what the revised world looks like.

[Kromm]

Here's the perspective of a GM who prefers ad-libbing to world-building:

I acknowledge that world-building is fun for some (perhaps most!) GMs who aren't me . . . but I find it tedious and too much like my day job. Instead, for each mundane pursuit, I assign an effective tech level which abstracts the density of wizards in the land, their predilections (especially the relative rewards of magical specialties, and what pursuits are rewarded or punished), the particular spells known and widely taught in the setting, and the laws of magic. This TL is simply a top-down declaration to produce the results I want; I have no actual formula for it.

Thus, in a fantasy setting with lots of well-regarded agri-wizards organized into prestigious guilds and working life-aspected or plant-aspected land, I might hand-wave "TL3, TL12 for agriculture." Then I would consult rules that peg food yields to TL. From there I would scale populations to yields and be done with it.

I am well aware that this would be unsatisfying to gamers who want to play agri-wizards! However, I've never had players like that, so I've never had to fight that battle. On the other hand, I've had lots of players who wanted fantasy settings that amounted to this: "Dirty, labyrinthine New Yorks and Londons, surrounded by ultra-dense, easily defended crop belts to feed everyone, and separated by wastelands full of monsters and dungeons." Treating cities as magical arcologies separated by all the rest of the world, which kills people, is surprisingly fun for dungeon crawls.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I acknowledge that world-building is fun for some (perhaps most!) GMs who aren't me . . . but I find it tedious and too much like my day job.

Lol
(Yes I did laugh).

This discussion (not Kromm's comment) also reminded me of an image I came across a few years ago:
http://www.elfwood.com/u/andersson2/...-farmer-of-war

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by silveroak

In a fantasy universe these rules may not even be the same, or may have other modifiers- growing well in direct light or shade may be complicated by mana levels. In short a realistic set of rules for framing in GURPS would be longer than the basic book, and still not very useful. A set of guidelines might be useful, but they would probably amount to little more than an article, especially when you start mixing in animals which can vary quite wildly between universes, and again especially with fantasy elements. When some kind of bloodthorn is a potential weed that can attack and kill horses, farming might be a much more exciting profession.

...

In short (too late) any kind of advanced rules for farming would be more a question of world design than an aspect of the basic rules.

Interesting. This just made me think.

People often complain that magic, specifically plant and agri-mages, would destroy medieval economies so that the world wouldn't look medieval anymore because the yields would be too good.

One response is to make Mages more rare.

But another response based on your wonderful post is that that fantasy world may be so difficult to plant and grow things in, that your need plant and agri-mages just to achieve the yields that people had in our middle ages.

Nice!

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by trooper6

But another response based on your wonderful post is that that fantasy world may be so difficult to plant and grow things in, that your need plant and agri-mages just to achieve the yields that people had in our middle ages.

Nice!

This would result in people without adequate magic starving and the "medieval" quality being lost anyway as agriculture became a amgic or nothing activity.

I'm not actually sure why gamers would want an authentic medieval quality anyway.