[DF] Stating up Centaurs

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

ST for human torso/arms
Extra HP to equal a horse
Lifting ST to equal a horse
Striking ST(Single Attack Only: Kicking) up to the horse's ST

That's how I'd do it.

Note that this make them exceptional wrestlers with their human arms, and has their humans arms only being crippled at the higher limit set by overall HPs. Also weakens their damage with a Lance, unless you houserule either using HPs or Lifting ST for that.

To Tbrock1031: Accessibility is more or less what we're using here. Anthony actually goes so far as to call it "Not For Manipulators" (rather than just using "No Fine Manipulators") and having it worth -40%.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

You assume centaurs have incompetence: climbing. As reasonable as that may be, I don't think we should assume anything when dealing with mythical chimera.

I wasn't assuming that, but just pointing out problems that their size and shape might cause. With only the two fine manipulators, I do assume that they will usually have a low gripping strength to weight ratio, which may lead to more issues when climbing.

[chandley]

Here is my release candidate for this version of Centaurs:

Centaur
75 points

Choice Professions: Archer, Barbarian (no gigantism), Brute, Knight.
Marginal Professions: Thief, Ninja

Centaurs are another of the beastmen, though of a fairly unique type. Instead of a bipedal melding of animal and humanoid features, Centaurs have the body of a horse, with the torso, arms and head of a human where the horses neck and head would have been. Coloration runs through the entire spectrum of human skin, eye and hair colors for their human torso, and separately through the full range of horse patterns and colors (including pure black, red, and white) for their lower body.

The largest Centaur herds are nomadic, following or herding herbivores for meat, milk and hide. Some have settled in one place and are as civilized as any human farming village, but the largest settlements rarely even reach the size of a human market town. While most Centaur are not adverse to giving friends a lift on their backs, woe be to the stranger who attempts to "ride" them. Nomadic Centaur often get along well with elves and halflings. While many consider Centaur somewhat crude and savage, there are many tales of wise centaur sages, some powerful magic users.

Find a Centaurs height at their withers by using the lower number for Height Range on the Build Table for their ST before the racial modifier (e.g. A ST 11 Centaur uses the ST 10 line, and is 5'3" (15.3 hands) at the shoulder of their horse body). Their human body adds one third the height of a normal human their ST (e.g. That same ST 11 Centaur has a human body adding between 1'9" and 2', for a total height of 7' to 7'3"). They weigh eight times as much as a human of their ST before racial modifier. Centaurs are omnivores.

Centaur generally wear minimal clothing (the women are perhaps notoriously immodest) except in very cold weather. They will wear armor however. Armor is bought as normal for their human head, neck, arms, hands and torso, plus horse barding (in Low Tech, they can wear Peytral, Flanchards, and Crupper, or a Caparison weighing only 450% of human torso armor covering their horse torso, groin, and legs (on a 1-4). Leg armor is also available, at 75% of human torso armor per leg, while foot armor is 5% of human torso armor per foot). They favor bows (they can fire longbows without issue) and spears (also used as lances, which they can couch to gain the benefit of their horse body ST as normal). The more settled centaurs will use polearms, especially those with spearheads.

Saddles, horse blankets and other aids to riding work normally for riding a centaur, if you can convince one to use more than a horse blanket, and they suffer the same rolls horses do for being ridden without proper gear (per Low Tech p.133). Obviously there are no bridles, bits, or halters for centaurs, and Riding Crops, Spurs and Stirrups give no bonus to Riding skill (and using them in a way that would have provided a bonus will provoke a fight!)

Centaurs are more adroit than horses, due to their human torsos and human level intelligence. They can crawl, climb (anything that can support their weight!), kneel and lay down without issue. They are smart enough to stay off an injured leg till it heals, and so use the normal crippling and long term injury rules for their legs. Their human torso and arms can, with some contortions, reach any part of their body at need. They can kick into any adjacent hex, including side hexes, at the usual penalties. Many train up techniques such as back kick and stamp kick if they have the right skills. Centaurs sleep laying down, and cannot usefully sleep standing up as horses do (though they can lock their legs and doze).

Attribute Modifiers: ST +1 [9]*.
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: Basic Move +1 [5].
Advantages: Claws (Hooves) [3]; Enhanced Move (Ground) x2 [20]; Extra Legs (4 legs) [5]; ST +10 (Size -10%, Not for Fine Manipulators** -40%) [50]; Temperature Tolerance 2 (All to colder range) [2].
Disadvantages: Social Stigma (Minority Group) [-10]; Extra Vitals (Horse Torso) [-5]; Slow Eater (Lose only 1.5 hours -70%) [-3];
Quirks: Finds the trappings of domesticated horses (saddles, harness, stables) offensive [-1].
Features: SM +1 (2 hexes); Only human head, neck, arm, and torso armor is interchangeable with other humanoids (and armor is bought at SM 0). Horse armor is interchangeable with other horse armor (though their caprisons will not protect a normal horses neck, and a normal horses caprison will have to be folded back a bit. Horse armor is already sized for SM +1). Centaurs require 2x the rations of a human, eat 2 meals a day, and take 1.5 hours to finish per meal. Short Tail.

* -10% for SM +1
** Not for Fine Manipulators is an accessibility limitation: ST bought with this limitation does not apply to any use of a character's hands or arms (however many of either they may have). Additionally, HPs bought with this limitation do not increase the crippling threshold for hands or arms. This is incompatible with the Weak Arm limitation on Extra Arms, do not buy both.

Power Ups:
ST can go to +1 over class limits. Horse body ST (bought with NFM) can increase to a total of +15 [5/level]. Ground Move can be increased by +4 more [5/level]. Centaur can upgrade Enhanced Move (Ground) to Extra Move Maneuver for [5], allowing them to move and perform other actions unpenalized (Effectively, Altered Time Rate (Move actions only -75%)[25] replaces Enhanced Move (Ground) x2 [20]). They may buy one level of Huge Weapons [1], allowing their human torso to use SM +1 weapons. They will still need to meet the MinST requirements with their human torso's ST however!

[chandley]

Originally Posted by GnomesofZurich

Just pointing out this topic has come up quite a few times before. One particularly relevant thread (that Kromm weighed in on) can be found here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...hlight=centaur

Thanks for this GoZ, I finally got to read through that. Similar arguments made, and Kromm suggested naming the limitation on ST "Lower Body Only -40%". So that pretty much cinches using the -40% on ST version to me.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by chandley

Choice Professions: Archer, Barbarian (no gigantism), Brute, Knight.
Marginal Professions: Thief, Ninja

The presence of Henchmen professions seems odd. Why Archer and not Scout? Conversely why Ninja and not Genin?

[chandley]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The presence of Henchmen professions seems odd. Why Archer and not Scout? Conversely why Ninja and not Genin?

Archer but not Scout is because it is hard to fit 75 points into the Scout template (where Barbarian and Knight can do it pretty easily, especially if you buy back the +1 ST from the racial package).

I dont know the Genin template, but if it is really stealth focused, it probably deserves to be in Marginal too. Wheres it from?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by chandley

Archer but not Scout is because it is hard to fit 75 points into the Scout template (where Barbarian and Knight can do it pretty easily, especially if you buy back the +1 ST from the racial package).

This doesn't seem to be concern for any of the other 75 point races.

I dont know the Genin template, but if it is really stealth focused, it probably deserves to be in Marginal too. Wheres it from?

Same place you got Brute and Archer, so far as I know. Henchmen, p. 37. Note there's a couple of Thief equivalents that probably also need to be marginalized. Really though, none of the other races have Henchmen templates as Choice or Marginal, I'd just use adventurer templates for consistency.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This doesn't seem to be concern for any of the other 75 point races.

Fair point. Just a habit I picked up I guess. I always thought the other 75 pointers didnt have them because Henchmen hadnt come out yet.

Same place you got Brute and Archer, so far as I know. Henchmen, p. 37. Note there's a couple of Thief equivalents that probably also need to be marginalized. Really though, none of the other races have Henchmen templates as Choice or Marginal, I'd just use adventurer templates for consistency.

I leave off all the "power up" templates, thats why I missed em. Cutpurse could be added I suppose, but you have 50 points to try to make it work, so I left it in the "neither good nor bad" middle zone.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You mean, like this post from this thread?

Kind of hard to find in that thread, I bet. I'm glad that someone else seems to recognize R.A.W.
I've seen so many posters lose their minds when other house rules are discussed as if R.A.W.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I wasn't assuming that, but just pointing out problems that their size and shape might cause. With only the two fine manipulators, I do assume that they will usually have a low gripping strength to weight ratio, which may lead to more issues when climbing.

Many goat species can climb inclines steep enough to make monkey children slip.
You seem to be assuming they can't climb well as humans. Of course they can't. They'll climb like centaurs.
But either way, if they have a disadvantage, then they should get points for it.
The only ones I can think of would be incompetence, or some kind of taboo against high skill in climbing.