Animal Handling specialization

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

True but Professional Skill (Farmer) and Farming/TL are not the same skill.

I tend to think that that's splitting things too fine. At least some animal handling tasks are going to be part of Farming—harnessing draft animals to the plow, for one. Others are going to be part of Housekeeping at certain TLs—a medieval housewife would know how to milk a cow or butcher a chicken. Driving a couple of cows to pasture, or slopping the pigs, ought to be manageable with just IQ. When you eliminate all of those, there probably aren't enough tasks left to justify having a second skill.

Bill Stoddard

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I tend to think that that's splitting things too fine. At least some animal handling tasks are going to be part of Farming—harnessing draft animals to the plow, for one. Others are going to be part of Housekeeping at certain TLs—a medieval housewife would know how to milk a cow or butcher a chicken. Driving a couple of cows to pasture, or slopping the pigs, ought to be manageable with just IQ. When you eliminate all of those, there probably aren't enough tasks left to justify having a second skill.

Bill Stoddard

and how do you think the holds up in the faces of your choice of Science skill and Eletronic Operation (Scientific) ?

Sometimes a skill lets you know when and why you should do something, but requires a separate skill to actually use the tool needed to do so.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

and how do you think the holds up in the faces of your choice of Science skill and Eletronic Operation (Scientific) ?

GURPS is not consistent in lumping vs. splitting. There is one Farming skill, but there a multiple skills for fencing with very slightly different weapons.

What tasks involving farm animals can you name that (a) are not required to be able to work the fields in the first place, (b) cannot be subsumed under Teamster (which I have proposed as a plausible added skill for a farmer), (c) cannot be viewed as simple enough for an IQ default (as in, a farm kid grows up knowing how to do them), and (d) are done by men and not women? Let's have a list, and then we can consider whether there are enough challenging tasks to justify having a different skill.

Bill Stoddard

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by whswhs

GURPS is not consistent in lumping vs. splitting. There is one Farming skill, but there a multiple skills for fencing with very slightly different weapons.

What tasks involving farm animals can you name that (a) are not required to be able to work the fields in the first place, (b) cannot be subsumed under Teamster (which I have proposed as a plausible added skill for a farmer), (c) cannot be viewed as simple enough for an IQ default (as in, a farm kid grows up knowing how to do them), and (d) are done by men and not women? Let's have a list, and then we can consider whether there are enough challenging tasks to justify having a different skill.

Bill Stoddard

Ok if you're saying Teamster instead of Handel Animal(Cattle) for the plow, then we are on the same page. just choosing a different skill for 'tool skill'. And I'm more than will to say Teamster is probably a better choice. Though for Sheep farmers I would say Handle Animal(Dog) as you typical train your own dogs.

Using Professional Skill (Farmer) wasn't originally my idea, though I do think it might be reasonable for it to exist but if it exists it most deftly not Farming/TL.

I'm more than willing to say Crop rotation choices land sustainability would Fall under Farmer/TL
But Choice of crop for market would not be but could fall into the hypothetical Professional Skill(Farmer).
What about timing choice for slaughter vs raising for calves for replacement vs meat issues?
Then there is all the issues of actually selling you cash crops and getting to to market, and arranging for you stall?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Ok if you're saying Teamster instead of Handel Animal(Cattle) for the plow, then we are on the same page. just choosing a different skill for 'tool skill'. And I'm more than will to say Teamster is probably a better choice.

No, I'm thinking Teamster for the oxcart. Driving a plow, and harnessing oxen to it, is Farmer if anything is. It's not a peripheral task; it's what farmers do. It would be like saying that a surgeon needed to buy Knife in addition to Surgery if he wanted to use a lancet or a scalpel.

Bill Stoddard

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by whswhs

No, I'm thinking Teamster for the oxcart. Driving a plow, and harnessing oxen to it, is Farmer if anything is. It's not a peripheral task; it's what farmers do. It would be like saying that a surgeon needed to buy Knife in addition to Surgery if he wanted to use a lancet or a scalpel.

Bill Stoddard

Hoe I would give you but not animal drawn plow.

And your analogy actually back this. Scaple probably not But there are surgery tools a Surgeon needs Electronic Operation (Medical) for.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Hoe I would give you but not animal drawn plow.

Working fields with a hoe in fact is widely referred to as horticulture, as opposed to agriculture. Now horticulture ≠ Gardening, to be sure. But making hoeing count as Farming, when plowing does not, is just perverse. From ancient Greece up into the early twentieth century, plowing was the primary way Western farmers worked the soil. A skill ought to include knowing how to use the primary tool of the skill.

Bill Stoddard

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by whswhs

You seem to be assuming that the farmer has a "herd." Didn't a typical medieval peasant have two oxen (to pull the plow and harness to the oxcart) and one cow (for milk, and to replace the oxen)?

A lot of farmers at lot of TLs have kept herds of sheep, for example, either in addition to fields they plow or as their primary value generating mechanism. In Iceland nearly every farmer did and still does. It's the primary 'crop' in a number of locations around the world.

I'm aware that there are farms that are more specialised, both now and in the past. But I don't know if that ought to be considered the default.

And even in places where individual farmers don't have many animals per household, it's very possible that the animals of a given region are kept jointly and the job of herding them is rotated through the younger workers. Which still means that every farmer is going to end up knowing how to manage farm animals.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Icelander

A lot of farmers at lot of TLs have kept herds of sheep, for example, either in addition to fields they plow or as their primary value generating mechanism. In Iceland nearly every farmer did and still does. It's the primary 'crop' in a number of locations around the world.

I'm aware that there are farms that are more specialised, both now and in the past. But I don't know if that ought to be considered the default.

And even in places where individual farmers don't have many animals per household, it's very possible that the animals of a given region are kept jointly and the job of herding them is rotated through the younger workers. Which still means that every farmer is going to end up knowing how to manage farm animals.

In an area where that is true, and where thus every young farmer has served as a shepherd for the village's flock, I would accept Animal Handling (Ovines) as an skill that farmers would have. Perhaps because they actually engage in herding as part of farming, or perhaps because they all learned it as young men (though in the latter case it would not be an occupational skill but a background skill).

A generic "farmer" entry in a list of jobs would not have that, because there have been many farmers who were not in that situation. Mesoamerican farmers had no domestic animals to speak of; Chinese farmers often didn't plow and didn't have space to keep grazing animals, and if they had swine, they probably kept them penned up; farmers in large parts of Africa couldn't keep cattle because of trypanosomiasis, and so on. Iceland, from what I've read, is at the other end of the distribution, have climate and vegetation that can most efficiently be exploited by keeping sheep. But that's a characteristic of some farmers, not of all or nearly all farmers worldwide. When you run your Icelandic campaign, designing a "farmer" template with more than just Farming makes perfect sense.

Bill Stoddard