[heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

One might also consider Shiva, or another powerful Hindu deity. This may be particularly poignant since they are the only really powerful ethereal entities left in the world, as far as reverence is concerned.

And off topic: What is vanilla IN's stance on the hindu deities? Considering that approximately a sixth of the human population still reveres them, and they apparently weren't touched by the purification crusades, what is their story?

Hinduism and voudoun are semi-divine religions, and worhip Essence goes partly to Heaven and partially to the ethereal Pantheons. These pantheons are also tolerated by Celestials much moreso than most.

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

How about Prometheus? Prometheus, to me, always sounded rather like a rogue angel of Gabriel, so maybe he/she threw their lot in with the ethereals?

Intriguing idea, that; Prometheus is a well-thought-out choice as pagan spirits go. He's a nobler figure than Lilith, yet still defends man's freedom from overreaching power: that is close to the way I see the Third Side in general. With the link between human creation and the Marches, it makes sense to have an Ethereal Elder of Humanity in the City of Refuge. Not an exact parallel to Lilith and Eve, but it works well enough in-game...

Granted, Gabriel doesn't have the Word of Fire in this campaign, though I could see Prometheus envying an unfallen Lucifer or Belial back in the day--and deciding "I'll do what those two should have done for Man." From there, talking some Outcasts and Renegades into Defection isn't such a huge leap!

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

One might also consider Shiva, or another powerful Hindu deity. This may be particularly poignant since they are the only really powerful ethereal entities left in the world, as far as reverence is concerned.

And off topic: What is vanilla IN's stance on the hindu deities? Considering that approximately a sixth of the human population still reveres them, and they apparently weren't touched by the purification crusades, what is their story?

Hinduism has an odd status in the In Nomine universe -- it's the only religion that qualifies both as an Ethereal faith and a Divine one. On the one hand, belief in its millions of deities created a ton of pagan dream spirits and gods. But since there are many who hold that all of those are simply masks of the One True God, it's also back-door monotheistic and sends power to Heaven. at the same time.

Uriel had been saving the Hindu deities for last. Some say he wanted the others off stage first before tackling the strongest of all; others whisper that he wasn't quite sure he could take them ...

[Phoenix42]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Hinduism has an odd status in the In Nomine universe -- it's the only religion that qualifies both as an Ethereal faith and a Divine one. On the one hand, belief in its millions of deities created a ton of pagan dream spirits and gods. But since there are many who hold that all of those are simply masks of the One True God, it's also back-door monotheistic and sends power to Heaven. at the same time.

Uriel had been saving the Hindu deities for last. Some say he wanted the others off stage first before tackling the strongest of all; others whisper that he wasn't quite sure he could take them ...

Originally Posted by DAlillama

Hinduism and voudoun are semi-divine religions, and worhip Essence goes partly to Heaven and partially to the ethereal Pantheons. These pantheons are also tolerated by Celestials much moreso than most.

Fascinating - thanks! Which sourcebooks do I have to get to find more on that?

Originally Posted by ISNorden

Intriguing idea, that; Prometheus is a well-thought-out choice as pagan spirits go. He's a nobler figure than Lilith, yet still defends man's freedom from overreaching power: that is close to the way I see the Third Side in general. With the link between human creation and the Marches, it makes sense to have an Ethereal Elder of Humanity in the City of Refuge. Not an exact parallel to Lilith and Eve, but it works well enough in-game...

Granted, Gabriel doesn't have the Word of Fire in this campaign, though I could see Prometheus envying an unfallen Lucifer or Belial back in the day--and deciding "I'll do what those two should have done for Man." From there, talking some Outcasts and Renegades into Defection isn't such a huge leap!

If you really wanted to give the whole thing a twist, you could have Prometheus team up with Aesculapius, who was punished for making man immortal (or, more precisely, bringing back the dead). If you were to take an ideosyncratic reading of those two legends, you could read that Prometheus brought the flame of inspiration and dreams (!) down to humans, thus effectively creating the marches, the third realm, which was neither really in Heaven or Hell's interest, but was shaped purely by human thought. Of course, people were still dying and going on to the Celestial Realms, so Aesculapius came up with a way of ending death... Maybe the two want to offer humanity a new possibility, one of eternal life on Earth and the Marches, shaping their own lives and dreams away from celestial interference?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Fascinating - thanks! Which sourcebooks do I have to get to find more on that?

I'll doublecheck my library, but if I recall correctly, the Game Master's Guide has most of that information -- it has a pretty extensive section on real-world religions in the In Nomine world -- with some supplementary details in the Ethereal Player's Guide.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Fascinating - thanks! Which sourcebooks do I have to get to find more on that?

Hinduism is in the GMG, pp 83-84, Voudon is mentioned briefly on p. 65, but mostly covered on p. 104 of The Marches.

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

If you really wanted to give the whole thing a twist, you could have Prometheus team up with Aesculapius, who was punished for making man immortal (or, more precisely, bringing back the dead). If you were to take an ideosyncratic reading of those two legends, you could read that Prometheus brought the flame of inspiration and dreams (!) down to humans, thus effectively creating the marches, the third realm, which was neither really in Heaven or Hell's interest, but was shaped purely by human thought. Of course, people were still dying and going on to the Celestial Realms, so Aesculapius came up with a way of ending death... Maybe the two want to offer humanity a new possibility, one of eternal life on Earth and the Marches, shaping their own lives and dreams away from celestial interference?

Bravissimo! If I remember the myths correctly, Aesculapius began as an exceptional human doctor, killed by the Greek gods for learning how to raise the dead; in game terms, he would be one of the few pagan humans to pick up the Celestial Song of Souls. Still, his exploits qualified as Legendary enough to make him a Dreamshade in the Far Marches...and powerful enough to earn the Word of Life when the first Gray Elders discovered him. (Uriel and Raphael finally soul-killed Aesculapius when the Greeks accepted Christianity, but not before the Marches had expanded farther than Blandine's and Beleth's immediate domains.)

Edited to add: Aesculapius' punishment has made the remaining Elders reluctant to use the Celestial Song of Souls. Even Shengshi (the Elder of Survival) prefers to use only the Corporeal and Ethereal versions of that Song--delaying death long enough to use other healing methods, or keeping a pagan soul hidden from non-Gray celestials.

[Phoenix42]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

I'll doublecheck my library, but if I recall correctly, the Game Master's Guide has most of that information -- it has a pretty extensive section on real-world religions in the In Nomine world -- with some supplementary details in the Ethereal Player's Guide.

Originally Posted by DAlillama

Hinduism is in the GMG, pp 83-84, Voudon is mentioned briefly on p. 65, but mostly covered on p. 104 of The Marches.

Aarrghhh... trust 'em to leave that out of the Gurps: In Nomine version of the GM guide... drat, looks like I'll definitely be getting both of those, the GMG rather sooner than later...

Originally Posted by ISNorden

Bravissimo!

Glad to assist ;) Though if you liked, Dream Shade Aesculapius may well have survived, or his resurrection may be a possibility - consider the fact that his "staff and snake" is still the universal symbol of medicine, he is an inofficial patron of doctors, and has been held as such more than any patron saint. Every doctor of modern medicine on earth will know his name...

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Glad to assist ;) Though if you liked, Dream Shade Aesculapius may well have survived, or his resurrection may be a possibility - consider the fact that his "staff and snake" is still the universal symbol of medicine, he is an inofficial patron of doctors, and has been held as such more than any patron saint. Every doctor of modern medicine on earth will know his name...

You have a point, there--since ethereals can reappear in new forms based on human belief, Aesculapius may have been reborn since his original destruction. Chances are, though, that his latest incarnation doesn't remember the Song that caused so much trouble (few people know the whole story, after all). The new version of Aesculapius is also too weak to remain an Elder, after what the Archangels did to him; he's now the equivalent of a major tribal god, perhaps 10-12 Forces.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by ISNorden

do you think it makes "game sense" for Lilith to end up as the first Dreamshade after her death?

Well, are we talking the In Nomine Lilith or the mythological Lilith? If the former... Well, when did she die? O:>

In IN, IIRC (alphabet soup, hah!), Lilith is a sorcerer (non-Fate-flavored), and sorcerers often pull the Dreamshade trick. So if you assumed she lived long enough to learn sorcery, then sure, Dreamshade is very plausible. First dreamshade? If the GM finds it plausible -- she was the first Divinely Created Woman with a Certificate of Authenticity, after all.

If you want her to've been bad to the bone before her death, then that's a reasonable enough option as well, and fits with the mythological one.