[heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

[ISNorden]

I'm not incorporating this idea into my official campaign, but if someone wanted to go even more "sideways" than I already have then it's worth a thought. What if Lilith had refused both God's will to serve Adam, and Satan's offer to become a Princess in Hell? Her decision may well have spawned a Legend that anchored Lilith to the Deep Marches as the first and most powerful dreamshade...a Superior-strength ethereal, equal at least to a minor Archangel or Prince.

In this alternate Symphony, Lilith may even have been responsible for the original Defections that established the Marches as a full-fledged third side in the War--first, persuading some Outcast Grigori to become Na'aim; and later, tempting other celestials to join the resistance. Lilith would govern a Ward in the City of Refuge (dedicated to preserving true Freedom from both Heaven and Hell), if she didn't rule the whole City outright.

By now you're probably wondering: what about the Lilim? Simple--Lilith never spawned them, since she never developed the necessary ties with Hell. If the GM really wants similar demons in an "ethereal Lilith" game, he could always include a Prince of the Deal and make the Tempters his signature Band. Personally, I'd give Mephistopheles from Faust that Word--and call his special servitors the Mephites, with abilities identical to canon Lilim but no gender restriction.

Any thoughts on the changes I suggested above? A three-sided War doesn't have to go this far, but I'm throwing the ideas out there... :)

[Phoenix42]

Sounds good - one might consider making Lilith less ethereal and more human (she is, after all), so her domain may actually be the corporeal realm - doesn't fit your idea of the celestial-ethereal-celestial war, but I think that could be interesting - human rebels against the celestial and ethereal parties could be (maybe unknowingly) in service to her.

Another add-on for Hell could be to simply cut out the wish-granters, and go more toward the actual demonic pacts, with writing etc. Those exist in original IN for soldiers, but are (I always felt) overshadowed by the power of the lilim to basically ad-lib the whole thing (although they can't make you lose your soul due to a Geas - or can they?). If one went more toward the pact-aspect, then one could think about how formal these pacts would have to be, but that's another story...

[dataweaver]

Another option would be to keep the Lilim, but as Ethereals. In canon, Lilith is in the unique position that she can have three different kinds of children: the Celestial Lilim, Ethereal Figments from her Dreamscape, and Corporeal human children. The third is unlikely to occur in any significant numbers, as Lilith doesn't strike me as the type who would willingly go through a pregnancy; but Figments are a definite possibility, and I could definitely see Lilith's Figments being crafty enough to have a higher-than-normal incidence of acquiring the Celestial Force necessary to become independent of their Mother.

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Another option would be to keep the Lilim, but as Ethereals. In canon, Lilith is in the unique position that she can have three different kinds of children: the Celestial Lilim, Ethereal Figments from her Dreamscape, and Corporeal human children. The third is unlikely to occur in any significant numbers, as Lilith doesn't strike me as the type who would willingly go through a pregnancy; but Figments are a definite possibility, and I could definitely see Lilith's Figments being crafty enough to have a higher-than-normal incidence of acquiring the Celestial Force necessary to become independent of their Mother.

Lilith's Figment-children, being ethereal, couldn't get a resonance of any kind; they'd have to rely on Songs, servitor Attunements, or both to read Needs. (A secret Song that's the equivalent of the standard Lilim Resonance...I could see Hell desperately trying to court the Gray Daughters for that knowledge!)

[dataweaver]

Don't Ethereals have Thread-based powers, or something along those lines? I would expect the Ethereal Lilim to have a Primal Thread of Freedom (I don't have EPG handy, so I'm winging it on the terminology).

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Don't Ethereals have Thread-based powers, or something along those lines? I would expect the Ethereal Lilim to have a Primal Thread of Freedom (I don't have EPG handy, so I'm winging it on the terminology).

I have the EPG buried somewhere, all right; so Ethereal Lilim would draw on a Freedom Thread of some kind...though the relevant powers and sub-types would need defining in game terms, first. Anyone else who could help with some starting descriptions, please?

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Sounds good - one might consider making Lilith less ethereal and more human (she is, after all), so her domain may actually be the corporeal realm - doesn't fit your idea of the celestial-ethereal-celestial war, but I think that could be interesting - human rebels against the celestial and ethereal parties could be (maybe unknowingly) in service to her.

Lilith, like any other human, would still have been mortal in the beginning--and still gone to some other realm eventually. Since she refused allegiance to either Heaven or Hell in this scenario, the only way she could remain a "permanent ghost" is as a dreamshade...there are no stories identifying her place of death or an object important to her. Lilith would probably respect later ethereals as human creations, too: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I also see humanity and the Marches as part of the same side in the War, spiritually speaking: people in many cultures want to preserve their dreams and stories as part of who they are. Blandine, Beleth, and some angel-friendly ethereals may disagree--but you see where I'm coming from, right?
:-) There will always be militant materialists resisting ANY spiritual intrusion into the Corporeal, but those people aren't organized as strongly as the other factions.

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Another add-on for Hell could be to simply cut out the wish-granters, and go more toward the actual demonic pacts, with writing etc. Those exist in original IN for soldiers, but are (I always felt) overshadowed by the power of the lilim to basically ad-lib the whole thing (although they can't make you lose your soul due to a Geas - or can they?). If one went more toward the pact-aspect, then one could think about how formal these pacts would have to be, but that's another story...

I'd definitely agree that selling a soul is a heftier price than a year of service or some extremely difficult act--which is all that canon Lilim can demand on a single level 6 Geas. That kind of pact would have to be made directly with a Prince...but trading lesser favors with lesser demons is part of the fun in canon, as well. That's the main reason I suggested adding a Prince of the Deal to take over Lilith's canonical job (which she couldn't fulfill without the demonic connection).