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Old 08-03-2020, 11:46 PM   #11
whswhs
 
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

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Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
Hills & mountains make great landmarks. I totally see where trees & blocked vision make things hard also featureless terrain like arctic or plains.
I'm not sure that's relevant. If the terrain is "Mountain" that doesn't mean you're looking at a mountain off in the distance; it means you're actually walking through mountains. Mountainous terrain can block your view of the wider landscape, or force you to take non-straight-line paths.
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Old 08-04-2020, 01:51 AM   #12
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

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Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
The medieval fantasy depiction of dense forests surrounding isolated villages was not actually typical, or so I've heard from people who I hope are more knowledgeable on the subject. ;)
In medieval Norway, "everyone" lived along the coast and traveled by boat if they wanted to get anywhere. Going from one village to a neighboring one would just as likely include sailing down one fjord and up the next, as going cross-country through forested wilderness.
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Old 08-04-2020, 02:00 AM   #13
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

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In medieval Norway, "everyone" lived along the coast and traveled by boat if they wanted to get anywhere. Going from one village to a neighboring one would just as likely include sailing down one fjord and up the next, as going cross-country through forested wilderness.
While Norway and Sweden are quite large on the scale of Europe, you're still outnumbered by temperate plains and forests in Europe. :)
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:35 AM   #14
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

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Don't forget that navigation assumes you have proper tools.
Even in woods if you have a compass, map & even a few landmarks, it shouldn't bee too hard to keep on course.
I've done it in hills, desert & light woods terrain.
There seems to be some internal rules disagreements about maps. After the End2 (p. 32) gives a +4 bonus for having a map as opposed to High-Tech (p. 52) which imposes -10 for not having a map. If one goes the After the End rules route, the bonus for having a map counters the penalty for most terrain.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:26 PM   #15
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

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There seems to be some internal rules disagreements about maps. After the End2 (p. 32) gives a +4 bonus for having a map as opposed to High-Tech (p. 52) which imposes -10 for not having a map. If one goes the After the End rules route, the bonus for having a map counters the penalty for most terrain.
Yes. Are you planing to use the basic rules or the AtE rules? IF you're going AtE then you're OK, but if you're planning to use the basic rules (I was thinking of them) then adding terrain mods are a true killer.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:30 PM   #16
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

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Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
While true, I've heard of experienced hikers getting lost in said few miles of woods.

Although - I'm not a hiker, but there's probably a difference between "experienced trail hiker", and "experienced wilderness hiker".
Sure, I agree with you.
However, if you have a compass & experience it's hard to get lost.
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Old 08-06-2020, 05:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

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Originally Posted by M036462 View Post
Arctic -2
Desert -1
Hills -2
Island/Beach -2
Jungle -5
Mountain -4
Plains 0
Swampland -4
Woodlands -3
Dense Woodlands -4
In terrain with good topography- e.g. hills or mountains- navigation by terrain association is way easier than on terrain that lacks topography- e.g. plains.

So I might invert these. Sort of. You'd have to fit penalties for jungle and woodland in there, since you can't really see the surrounding topography well. They would probably just add a bit of penalty to the underlying topography, so that a jungle on a flat plain would be the worst.

Of course, this assumes that you are using a topographical map. (My (rather extensive) experience is in modern-day orienteering.) But if you are doing celestial navigation, well, then all that matters is how well you can see the sky, so plains might be the easiest.

But most modern land navigation uses a compass, map, and terrain association, and navigating a featureless plain with no landmarks is sort of the very definition of difficult, there. This is why the nascent GPS systems were so incredibly important during Desert Storm. (More experience speaking, there.)

So I disagree with Bill. Quite intensely, actually.
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Old 08-26-2020, 08:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

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Part of the problem comes from what the consequences of a failed navigation check. ATE and DF16 treat navigation checks as giving a bonus or penalty to travel speed. Terrain type is already factored into travel speed and some of the modifier is undoubtedly due to navigation difficulty of the terrain, which leads to not adding an additional penalty to the check. I am planning on using a failed navigation check to send the party into the wrong hex which makes me lean toward including a terrain penalty for navigation.
IME, which is extensive with hexcrawls, sending the party into the wrong hex is more bother than it's worth. This is likely why Kromm went with a travel penalty.
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Old 08-26-2020, 09:18 AM   #19
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

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Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
In terrain with good topography- e.g. hills or mountains- navigation by terrain association is way easier than on terrain that lacks topography- e.g. plains.

So I might invert these. Sort of. You'd have to fit penalties for jungle and woodland in there, since you can't really see the surrounding topography well. They would probably just add a bit of penalty to the underlying topography, so that a jungle on a flat plain would be the worst.

Of course, this assumes that you are using a topographical map. (My (rather extensive) experience is in modern-day orienteering.) But if you are doing celestial navigation, well, then all that matters is how well you can see the sky, so plains might be the easiest.
I'd say that not only are you using a good topographical map (and in an AtE setting your map's likely to be widely wrong about the size and shape of woods, etc.), but you're good at relating map to ground. Alternatively, you need good local knowledge.

Watching people without these match the wrong peak to the one on the map and steadfastly refuse to change their minds until you're hours out of your way is something.

In a game where navigating is just something you want a quick roll for to see if the party makes good time or not, or possibly screws up badly and gets lost every so often (so on a critical failure), but otherwise doesn't focus on it much, I'd just say that's part of Navigation. You have a map, or someone with local knowledge (and who doesn't blow the skill roll, which I'd allow as an assist to the main Navigation roll), so you're good. You don't, you eat the penalty.

If it was a game where more detail was called for, I'd be looking for Cartography rolls, and possibly Naturalist ones as well, on top of the Navigation checks. However, I'd be looking carefully at the overall effects of these, because asking for lots of rolls tends to do odd things to the overall probabilities if you don't look out.
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Old 08-26-2020, 10:48 AM   #20
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Default Re: GURPS Navigation (Land) and Terrain

I think part of the difficulty of navigating in forested and rough terrain is the slow movement possible. If you say that a group need to make repeated navigation rolls, say for each 4 hour travel, the slower movement of jungle and mountain forces you to make more "rolls per mile", that in itself is a penalty and increases the chances of deviation and delays.

So, geographical landmarks may add bonuses, speed is a handicap in itself, visibility modifiers (foliage and mist for example) may be a penalty if using the stars, having a compass will eliminate visibility penalties (but maybe not grant bonuses), following a trail may add bonuses and may require vision or tracking rolls if there is low visibility.

If the idea is to make the navigation interesting I believe the best approach is to make it varied and variable, it will depend on the circumstances and allow for some roleplaying and creative ideas (like marking old buildings ruin with a big red cloth so you have a ready made landmark in a post apocalyptic wasteland you are traversing).
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