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Old 11-03-2011, 03:36 PM   #51
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Ts_ View Post
Okay, for spells at 15+ (I thought it needed 20+), mages aren't really affected in their casting by the Vow. But below that (really, any character that took this Vow before becoming a powerful wizard) it would disable almost all spells. I can't imagine any wizard apprentice with this Vow, while I can imagine an apprentice fighter with the "no edged weapons" Vow, even an effective one. That's why I keep saying that one is a lot harsher than the other. That's why I think that these two Vows are not priced correctly against each other.

But you can even disregard the relative pricing of these two Vows: That still doesn't explain why a Vow "always keep silent" is worth significantly less than the disadvantage not to speak. Where do their effects differ? And if there is something intrinsic in a Vow that makes it a softer disad, what does this mean for the "no edged weapons" Vow? Is it also the softer version of a -30 limitation not to use edged weapons?
The silence vow is worth less than mute, because vows can be broken. Yes, you don't get experience points and you may have do some annoying things to atone for breaking it, but you can actually talk. And no, there is no disadvantage that makes you able to use blunt weapons but not edged weapons.
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:55 PM   #52
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

Gotcha on the flavor thing. Out of curiosity, what rationalization do your wizards use for not using edged weapons? Are you going for the "can't shed blood" thing that's normally used with priests, or something different?

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Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post
A Vow not to use edged weapons is worth -10 points. But a vow not to use edged weapons isn't worth anything. You break a vow and you feel guilty for a time, but then continue as normal, the vow still in place. If you break a Vow, you lose points and the Vow is gone.
Well, while I was being a touch silly with the "you feel guilty" bit (since I know that there are probably much stronger consequences--for all I know, should your wizards break their vow, they might get kicked out of the guild and lose all the privileges, or even get hunted down or have their magics fail), I don't really see anything that says that if you break a Vow, you have to pay it off--you only have to do that if you decide to end a Vow early that--if I'm reading the book correctly--normally has an expiration date.

Personally, I wouldn't say that if you break a Vow it's automatically gone and you have to pay the points. I'd say that the character would have to go on a "quest of redemption" (the phrase sounds silly when referring to anything other than typical fantasy, doesn't it?) as well as suffer from social repercussions. Unless the PC truly is going out of her way to break the Vow, in which case she would have to pay the points and still suffer from the social issues.
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:14 PM   #53
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
"Anything that does cutting, impaling, or piercing damage" is what it means . . . it definitely outlaws arrows, rapiers, spears, and other stabbing weapons, as well as bullets.
Does it cover arrows and bolts with blunt tips as well?
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Old 11-04-2011, 01:24 AM   #54
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Faolyn View Post
Does it cover arrows and bolts with blunt tips as well?
Those are not "anything that does cutting, impaling, or piercing damage." If they do crushing damage, they're fine.
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Old 11-04-2011, 01:55 AM   #55
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Faolyn View Post
Gotcha on the flavor thing. Out of curiosity, what rationalization do your wizards use for not using edged weapons? Are you going for the "can't shed blood" thing that's normally used with priests, or something different?
I can't recall that it was ever explicitly stated why it was a tradition that wizards only used staffs. But as mentioned upthread, the tradition was amended to include daggers because of Magius. And I've added knifes in general to simplify things.

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Well, while I was being a touch silly with the "you feel guilty" bit (since I know that there are probably much stronger consequences--for all I know, should your wizards break their vow, they might get kicked out of the guild and lose all the privileges, or even get hunted down or have their magics fail), I don't really see anything that says that if you break a Vow, you have to pay it off--you only have to do that if you decide to end a Vow early that--if I'm reading the book correctly--normally has an expiration date.

Personally, I wouldn't say that if you break a Vow it's automatically gone and you have to pay the points. I'd say that the character would have to go on a "quest of redemption" (the phrase sounds silly when referring to anything other than typical fantasy, doesn't it?) as well as suffer from social repercussions. Unless the PC truly is going out of her way to break the Vow, in which case she would have to pay the points and still suffer from the social issues.
Having looked into the consequences of not following this tradition, it turns out that for the weapons part there isn't one. And for the armor, there's only the D&D3.5 game mechanical consequence of a small probability of spell failure, which I'm not using in GURPS. But nevertheless, most wizards still follow the tradition, because it's tradition.

In the text for Vow, the only time it talks about what happens if you don't keep the Vow, is when you end it early. It doesn't say anything about Vows that are supposed to be kept for ever. But it does say that you have to take the Vow seriously. In my mind, that means that if you break the Vow, you don't take it seriously and you'll lose it and have to pay the points back.

Though if you want to get it back, you could still show that you were serious about it. And I'd suggest that the GM exacted penalty for ending it early, perhaps "[undertaking] a quest by way of penance" would be sufficient to do so. And by so doing you'd get the Vow back aswell as the points you've just lost.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:13 PM   #56
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Those are not "anything that does cutting, impaling, or piercing damage." If they do crushing damage, they're fine.
Well, it was said that the flat of a blade wouldn't count, so I wanted to double-check.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:19 PM   #57
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by Faolyn View Post
Well, it was said that the flat of a blade wouldn't count, so I wanted to double-check.
EDIT: misunderstood.

Flat of a blade is a bladed weapon. A blunt arrow is not an arrow fired backwards, it's an arrow with no sharp parts.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:53 PM   #58
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The silence vow is worth less than mute, because vows can be broken. Yes, you don't get experience points and you may have do some annoying things to atone for breaking it, but you can actually talk. And no, there is no disadvantage that makes you able to use blunt weapons but not edged weapons.
Additionally, I would doubt that for example a medieval Cistercian would be accused of breaking his vow of silence if he screamed when a wild animal burst into the cloister, whereas a mute would be unable to do so.
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