Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-02-2011, 04:10 PM   #31
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Staying on-topic this time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post

Vow: Wizard Weapons Only - The only weapons you use are staffs, daggers, and knifes.

Vow: Wizard Armor Only - The only armor you use is textile armor.

Both of them seem to each be as restrictive as No edged weapons [-10]
I could get behind -10 points for the first Vow. It is indeed about as restrictive as Vow (No edged weapons) [-10]. Given that Vow (Always fight unarmed) [-15] is canonical, and found in many GURPS sources across a couple of editions, no Vow that restricts weapons – however tightly – yet permits armed combat should ever be more severe than -10 points. Rather than go into the false precision afforded by counting weapons or gauging relative effectiveness, I would simply say this:
  • A Vow not to use one specific weapon is a quirk. Example: "Never use a dagger, for it is the weapon of assassins." -1 point.
  • A Vow not to use a small class of weapons is minor. Examples: "No swords" (nothing sharp used with Broadsword, Knife, Main-Gauche, Rapier, Saber, Shortsword, Smallsword, or Two-Handed Sword) or "No heavy battlefield weapons" (forbids crossbows, flails, greatswords, lances, longbows, polearms, spears, warhammers, etc.). -5 points.
  • A Vow not to use a large class of weapons would be major. Example: "No edged weapons" or "No ranged weapons." -10 points.
  • Only a Vow to use no weapons at all, ever would ever count as "great." -15 points.
Treat a Vow only to use a small class (e.g., "Only swords" or "Only heavy battlefield weapons") as major [-10] and one only to use a large class (e.g., "Only edged weapons") as minor [-5]. Err on the side of fewer points. Vowing only to use daggers and staffs, or for that matter only to use the rapier, still allows some weapons, so it's -10 points.

Armor-related Vows are trickier. I would take everything down a class for wizards:
  • A Vow never or always to wear one specific item is a quirk. Examples: "Never wear a helmet, because it blocks magical energies" or "Always wear a helmet, because it filters out distracting evil thoughts." -1 point.
  • A Vow not to use the best armor is minor. Examples: "No metal armor" or "No heavy battlefield armor" (forbids anything with DR 4+). -5 points.
  • A Vow not to use any armor at all would be major. -10 points.
This isn't symmetric with the weapons case because there are skeevy ways to get DR without armor in fantasy, and wizards are among their foremost users: Armor spells, Bracers of Force, Ironskin Amulets, Robes of Protection, etc. I'd only give -15 points for this Vow to a warrior, or to a wizard who eschewed not just armor but DR.

Collectively, this would make your wizard Vows worth -15 points, which is about the limit for Vows. I would not let gear-related Vows stack up to -20 points or worse for anybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post

By RAW, Vows cannot be broken.

There are no game mechanical penalties for breaking a Vow, as they cannot be broken.
This is not strictly true. You can break a Vow and there is a game-mechanical penalty: You have to pay off the Vow, because it's now clear that you don't take it seriously. If you can't afford to pay it off, then the GM gets to withhold points until it's paid off . . . or just give you a new disadvantage to replace it, like Reputation (Oath-breaker) or reduced Magery. That's what "If you want to end a Vow before its stated time, the GM may exact a penalty" is getting at.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 04:22 PM   #32
Dragondog
Never Been Pretty
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Thank you.
Dragondog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 04:27 PM   #33
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post

A Vow has the same cost no matter who you are. No matter if you're low ST or high ST. Warrior or wizard.
That isn't quite true. A Vow is always a personal thing. You may be asked to take it by someone else, but it's still your Vow and priced for the restrictions it places on you.

In my examples, I assumed a wizard because it appears that wizardly powers are to be tied up in the question. Remember that "No edged weapons" for clerics, when chosen, explicitly forms the basis of a Pact limitation that costs the cleric his powers if he picks up a blade! As has been hinted at here, the same Vow would be a free 10 points for a warrior with ST 20, Two-Handed Axe/Mace-20, and a huge maul. Likewise, my armor Vows took into account that wizards don't need armor as much as other characters – not with Armor spells, Shield spells, Iron Arm, etc., and not given that their profession isn't "warrior" but "support."

It also matters what the consequences are. It would be perfectly fair to say that wizards must take Vow [-10] to purify their minds to learn magic, but can then break the Vow later on at the cost of a level of Magery. The net effect on point value would be 0, but the wizard would really have to want to break the Vow! That isn't the same as the cleric case (a cleric loses his powers, he doesn't just drop a level of Power Investiture) because the wizard has no Pact. If a cleric's Pact were more severe, his Vow would rise to match it. These character-specific considerations are a big part of pricing Vows.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 04:32 PM   #34
Kuroshima
MIB
Pyramid Contributor
Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer
 
Kuroshima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Kromm, a vow to only ever use NERF weapons (and not even fight unarmed) would be even more restrictive that one that forces you to fight unarmed xD
__________________
Antoni Ten
MIB3119
My GURPs character sheet
My stuff on e23
Kuroshima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 04:35 PM   #35
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post

Kromm, a vow to only ever use NERF weapons (and not even fight unarmed) would be even more restrictive that one that forces you to fight unarmed xD
I'd give -15 points for that one. :)
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 04:53 PM   #36
Faolyn
 
Faolyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post
You could say the same thing about not using edged weapons, but that is a vow.
I'm not entirely sure what bit you were replying to here. If it's the bit about not having the time (supposedly) to learn how to use weaponry, that's not a vow, that's a statement that says that, in the world of the twenty-siders, magic takes all frickin' day to learn. If it's about the idea that magic can't flow through metal armor, well, I can't help you there, because then in D&D they shouldn't be able to enchant metal armor and weapons. But nobody said that D&D made much sense, anyway. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post
IDHMBWM, but IIRC you only get points for Vow if you cannot break it.
If you can't break it, that's a curse or something. Vows are breakable--you're not supposed to break it, but you can. I think you're confused because the book says "Many Vows end after a specified period of time," but those are vows like "for the next year, I won't eat cake." If it's a Vow and you break it, you feel guilty. If it's a curse, then you, I dunno, get turned into a cake yourself. Or get smote by the gods of evil baking.
Faolyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 07:00 PM   #37
Ts_
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I'd give -15 points for that one. :)
I think Kuroshima would want to play a NERFed Mystic Knight. Would that still be a -15?

More seriously, why is "no edged weapons" worth -10 points? I just don't see it unless the PC has already put points into edged weapons. And even then, you can still use training weapons with cr instead of cut damage at full skill. You could get +2 Striking ST for this after all.

Sure, it sounds like a severe thing, but let's compare it to Vow ("Never speak") [-15]. That makes a wizard completely useless (unless he has very high skill). The "no edged weapons" only inconveniences a fighter (the class that is supposed to depend on weapons). Also, "Never speak" applies in way more situations than just combat. It affects anyone using social interactions. It's bad for Leadership/Tactics in combat etc. There's a reason "Mute" is worth [-25] even to character concepts that don't especially rely on speech. So why is "Never speak" only [-15]?

From this I draw the conclusion that Vow ("Never speak") [-15] is appropriately priced, but "no edged weapons" is way too munchkinny. You could also say that a Vow should cost as much as the disadvantage it represents and price Never Speak as [-25]. I don't agree but I also think Vows can be broken on rare occasions without lasting consequences (if you try to restore yourself in front of your god etc), so they aren't quite as severe as the real disadvantage. (I've already tried to expand on this upthread to accomodate different kinds of Vows, in particular those that cannot be broken ...)

Thanks for any insight into "No edged weapons"!
Ts
Ts_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 08:01 PM   #38
Darieltis
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ts_ View Post
More seriously, why is "no edged weapons" worth -10 points? I just don't see it unless the PC has already put points into edged weapons. And even then, you can still use training weapons with cr instead of cut damage at full skill. You could get +2 Striking ST for this after all.
I would imagine it has to do with damage type...edged weapons can do cutting damage or impaling (some anyway), and both of those types get multipliers for penetrating damage...plus the ability to amputate limbs etc. Blunt weapons do crushing damage only iirc.
Darieltis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 09:35 PM   #39
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Vow: Do One-Third to One-Half Injury To All Targets [-10]
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2011, 12:22 AM   #40
Dragondog
Never Been Pretty
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Default Re: Wizard Vows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
That isn't quite true. A Vow is always a personal thing. You may be asked to take it by someone else, but it's still your Vow and priced for the restrictions it places on you.
I noted that when I reread the text for Vow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faolyn View Post
I'm not entirely sure what bit you were replying to here. If it's the bit about not having the time (supposedly) to learn how to use weaponry, that's not a vow, that's a statement that says that, in the world of the twenty-siders, magic takes all frickin' day to learn. If it's about the idea that magic can't flow through metal armor, well, I can't help you there, because then in D&D they shouldn't be able to enchant metal armor and weapons. But nobody said that D&D made much sense, anyway. :)

If you can't break it, that's a curse or something. Vows are breakable--you're not supposed to break it, but you can. I think you're confused because the book says "Many Vows end after a specified period of time," but those are vows like "for the next year, I won't eat cake." If it's a Vow and you break it, you feel guilty. If it's a curse, then you, I dunno, get turned into a cake yourself. Or get smote by the gods of evil baking.
When I reread your post, I note that my comment wasn't as clear as I thought it was. I'm not trying to mirror D&D, I'm going for color. So the reasons for the Vow has nothing to do with D&D. There's a difference between chosing not to learn how to use the sword right now, but being willing to use it in an emergency and Vowing not use a sword at any time for any reason.

You only get points for a Vow if you take it seriously, or in other words you're not going to break it. If you do break it, you're not serious about it and it no longer gives you extra points. It is thus no longer a Disadvantage.

A Vow not to use edged weapons is worth -10 points. But a vow not to use edged weapons isn't worth anything. You break a vow and you feel guilty for a time, but then continue as normal, the vow still in place. If you break a Vow, you lose points and the Vow is gone.
Dragondog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dragonlance, vow, wizard

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.