Luck: Mundane or not?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I'm certainly not saying "Don't use those traits". I am saying that they don't seem to have a place in a strictly realistic game.

You are also saying that Luck is a supernatural trait, which is my problem. What if I want to give it to a character who isn't a wizard or something?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'm quite sure there are none who do it like Luck does it.

.

No, in the game world Luck is only a result. It's at the game table where it might be a specific mechanism but everything that happens at the game table is meta-game.

_Characters_ can have the Luck advantage on their character sheets without necessarily having any supernatural abilities _within_ the game world. Nobody rolls dice in the real world. Rolling dice is always meta-game.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No, in the game world Luck is only a result. It's at the game table where it might be a specific mechanism but everything that happens at the game table is meta-game.

_Characters_ can have the Luck advantage on their character sheets without necessarily having any supernatural abilities _within_ the game world. Nobody rolls dice in the real world. Rolling dice is always meta-game.

I suspect you lost the thread I was responding to. That post was about whether Luck could represent "resourceful people who rise to the occasion in stressful situations", not about whether Luck is supernatural.

If you knew this, I don't understand how your post is a reply to mine.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I suspect you lost the thread I was responding to. That post was about whether Luck could represent "resourceful people who rise to the occasion in stressful situations", not about whether Luck is supernatural.

If you knew this, I don't understand how your post is a reply to mine.

It's because I disagree with your conclusions.

Luck is a game mechanic that modifies other game mechanics. All of these things are meta-game. It is only the _results_ of these game mechanics (modified)) or not that are seen in the game world.

Thus I hold that Luck may be simulating a number 0f things besides a supernatural alteration of probabilities within the game world. It might well be simulating an increased amount of alertness, decisiveness and/or mental focus in crisis situations i.e "rising to the occasion". It might be several other things as well or instead.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It's because I disagree with your conclusions.

Luck is a game mechanic that modifies other game mechanics. All of these things are meta-game. It is only the _results_ of these game mechanics (modified)) or not that are seen in the game world.

Thus I hold that Luck may be simulating a number 0f things besides a supernatural alteration of probabilities within the game world. It might well be simulating an increased amount of alertness, decisiveness and/or mental focus in crisis situations i.e "rising to the occasion". It might be several other things as well or instead.

The mechanics determine the effects. It doesn't matter that the 'roll the dice two more times' is out-of-game when its consequences are in-game. You can make other people miss attacks. You can make a coin-toss go your way. You can prevent your gun from malfunctioning. Luck can do things that no possible (non-supernatural) internal state of the Lucky character could.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The mechanics determine the effects. It doesn't matter that the 'roll the dice two more times' is out-of-game when its consequences are in-game. You can make other people miss attacks. You can make a coin-toss go your way. You can prevent your gun from malfunctioning. Luck can do things that no possible (non-supernatural) internal state of the Lucky character could.

You're being too literalist. The character's gun didn't malfunction because you cleaned it. The character's enemy missed because your character did some thing that caused the enemy to miss . The character didn't change the result of the coin toss. He chose better guided by a brief flash of intuition.

The _Player_ may have re-rolled some dice but _Characters_ never roll dice. Only if Luck is bought with the Active Enhancement does it become a probability alteration Power of the Character that is active within the game world.

All rolling of dice is meta-game but that doesn't make it supernatural within the frame of the game world. It never happens in the game world at all. The dice are still rolled to simulate activity that goes in even in worlds that have no supernatural Powers.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You're being too literalist. The character's gun didn't malfunction because you cleaned it. The character's enemy missed because your character did some thing that caused the enemy to miss . The character didn't change the result of the coin toss. He chose better guided by a brief flash of intuition.

No, if cleaning the gun could make the gun malfunction less than its malf rate, then you wouldn't need Luck for it to do so. The character's Luck can make an enemy miss while the character is explicitly not doing anything whatsoever to cause that. Flashes of intuition that reliably predict coin tosses are supernatural, and could probably win you some kind of 'demonstration of psychic powers' prize.

Yes, I'm being literalistic. GURPS is pretty literalistic too.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The _Player_ may have re-rolled some dice but _Characters_ never roll dice. Only if Luck is bought with the Active Enhancement does it become a probability alteration Power of the Character that is active within the game world.

All rolling of dice is meta-game but that doesn't make it supernatural within the frame of the game world. It never happens in the game world at all.

Yes, is it necessary to repeat the obvious?

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The dice are still rolled to simulate activity that goes in even in worlds that have no supernatural Powers.

No, there's no such activity that the Luck mechanic can represent.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Yes, is it necessary to repeat the obvious?
.

<shrug> You didn't seem to get it the first time.

Now it has become clear that you are fully committed to being wrong so I'll stop trying to convince you otherwise but you are still wrong IMHO.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

No, if cleaning the gun could make the gun malfunction less than its malf rate, then you wouldn't need Luck for it to do so. The character's Luck can make an enemy miss while the character is explicitly not doing anything whatsoever to cause that. Flashes of intuition that reliably predict coin tosses are supernatural, and could probably win you some kind of 'demonstration of psychic powers' prize.

Yes, I'm being literalistic. GURPS is pretty literalistic too.

Yes, is it necessary to repeat the obvious?

No, there's no such activity that the Luck mechanic can represent.

Sorry, but no. First, Luck doesn't allow you to predict anything, at all.

Some people do have luck, or happen to be in the right place at the right time, repeatedly. What better mechanic for that, than luck?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Sorry, but no. First, Luck doesn't allow you to predict anything, at all.

I never said that it did.

What I did say, a couple posts up the chain, is that you could use Luck to win a coin toss.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Some people do have luck, or happen to be in the right place at the right time, repeatedly. What better mechanic for that, than luck?

I'm going to say this again, and maybe this time it will take: I have no problem with using Luck as a metagame advantage to represent/guarantee small-'l' luck for your character. I do not consider this supernatural.

I do very much have a problem with using Luck as a non-metagame, non-supernatural advantage that represents some kind of special in-character competence.

That is the topic about which I was writing.