Un-nerfed Mages

[Anthony]

A key issue with 'un-nerfed' mages is that standard GURPS mages are actually very powerful -- they're just powerful in a way that isn't especially related to the 'mage as artillery' paradigm.

Something I've considered is to make the time/cost reduction based on points in skill, rather than absolute skill; something like:

Points  1   2   4   8  12  16  20  24  28  32  36  40
Ritual  9  12  15  18  20 1/2 1/2 1/4 1/4 1/8 1/8 /16
Fatigue 0   0  -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5

That makes Johnny-one-spell a lot better, and the generalist significantly worse, but that doesn't bother me.

[Der Wanderer]

If you want an artillery mage you might consider Innate Attack instead of spells. Personally I feel that magic is already powerfull (primarly due to the diversity of spells), making it more powerfull will be quite unbalancing...

For high fantasy I highly recommend not to limit Magery to 3 levels. This has two benefits: 1. Not all mages have IQ 20 and 2. Specialization of Magery (e.g. one college) becomes more meaningfull)

Just as an example:
In my campaign we have a unarmed comatant / movement mage, he has Blur, Haste and Karate ;) at 20 (Magery 3 / 18 FP / + 5 EP Powerstone)
Round 1: Mage casts Blur 3 for 1 FP (furthermore he is -3 to hit)
Round 2: Mage casts Haste 3 for 4 FP (he gets +3 to Dodge and Move)
5 FP (2 FP / min to maintain) and he is very hard to hit...
Considering that the same mage also has Distant Blow, Teleport, Phase, Etheral Body, Flight, Invisibility, Timeslip (and more), makes him one of the most dangerous combatant in the group...

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

First off, thanks for reading my post. Based on the posts I have read people are obviously very passionate about this subject so please bare with me.

I'm the GM for a high fantasy game with 5 players in a world of my creation. I have found that the current rules in 4e have nerfed the mage (and primary character). Being a Robin's Laws Storyteller, I'd like to see this character hurling fireballs at his enemies. The problem is that he is simply too weak. It takes him many turns to deal the same damage as an equivalent warrior and when he is done, he has to sit down to rest for several minutes.

Really? Just how strong are your warriors? It only takes 1 second for a mage to deliver 3 dice of damage so they'd have to be...something like strength 24, (edit no wait, 18), right? Of course the simple answer is just to let them get more than three levels of magic aptitude.

[Xplo]

Assuming the mage has Magery 3+ (and a high fantasy, walking artillery piece definitely should), that means he can pump 3d or more into a Fireball per second. I shudder to think of the kind of damage the warriors are inflicting to outdo this guy.. but if you're happy with this kind of thing, and you just want to give the mage more "shots", then allowing extra magic-only FP with no limit is a perfectly good option.

If that's not enough for you, then I suggest giving the mage an Innate Attack, with which he can blast away at things all day long.

[Kromm]

To be fair, in the sorts of campaigns where wizards routinely belt out 9d fireballs -- which are rather FP-intensive -- and have the skill to hit the target, the warriors typically have rather impressive attacks, too. A typical attack might be from a dwarven Weapon Master with ST 17 and a great axe hitting at +2 on the die (WM), for 3d+8 to the skull, and cleaving through DR 4 helm and DR 2 skull to land 12 points of penetrating damage that becomes 48 points of injury . . . more than a 9d fireball could realistically hope for against DR 4. And the Weapon Master can use Deceptive Attack to make every hit count, while the mage as often as not ends up tossing 9 FP at somebody who dodges.

Artillery is not a good use of magepower in GURPS. To simulate Diablo and WoW-style artillery mages, don't even bother with spells. Just buy Innate Attack from the get-go . . . or more likely a set of Innate Attacks bought as alternative attacks. Magery-based magic is actually fairly subtle, as FRPG magic goes. It isn't as subtle as 3e's Ritual Magic, but it's orders of magnitude more subtle than most video-game magic.

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

In 4E and with new traits pricement, mages are more overpowered than ever.
Let's see some examples (all assume an IQ 14, Magery 3-character; since both traits can benefit dozens of spells, their point cost is assumed to be negligible. prerequisites are not accounted, because by Powers they don't affect point cost) :

Fireball

Built as a Spell: Just spend one point in the Fireball spell to have it at level 15 [1].
Built as an Innate Attack: Burning Attack 3d (Increased 1/2D, 2x, +5%; Variable, +5%; Costs Fatigue, 2 FP, -10%; Inaccurate 2, -10%; Magic, -10%; Reduced Range, /2, -10%; Requires gestures or magical words, -5%*; Requires IQ-Based skill roll, -10%) [9] + Fireball skill at IQ+1 [8]. *Since you can't cast spells only when you're immobilized and silenced, that's a pretty minor drawback.
Note that the spell allows you to cast 9d fireballs by enlarging the attack, a thing you can't do with IA (not without a complex writeup and an additional increase in cost).

Teleport

Built as a Spell:: Just spend 32 points to have it at level 25 [32].
Built with Warp: Warp (Extra Carrying Capacity, up to Heavy Encumbrance, +30; Magic, -10%; Requires IQ-Based Skill Roll, -10%) [110] + the appropriate skill level cost.

Body of Wind
Built as a Spell: Just spend 132 points in the Body of Wind spell to have it at level 50 [132].
Built as a Meta-Trait: ST +10 (assuming an average-strong mage) [100] + Body of Air [36] without ST -10 [100] and Vulnerability [20], and with No Fine Manipulators instead of No Manipulators [20]. -10% for Magical and +10% for Switchable balance each other. Add Body of Wind skill at IQ+33 (you still fail only on 18 even when facing unspeakable penalties). That totals [276] before calculating the point value for giving -5 to hit to all ranged attacks against you, for being able to take down people without wasting an action, etc., and before adding the skill cost (which makes Requires IQ-Based Skill Roll ridicolous).

Have I to say anything else?

[PoweredByCoffee]

Thank you for the feedback everyone. I really like some of the ideas (especially the mana-absorbing plant idea by DieMunchkin - fracking sweet idea!!).

I can't say I agree with those that say that Mages aren't nerfed, albiet that is really dependent on the types of spells that mage has and how effective he is at using them. I should not have used "nerf" in the title because most of the responses I got were opportunity fire instead of a detailed look at my recommendations. My perspective on this comes from LOTS of arena type playtesting.

The problem with some of these ideas is that they don't quite fit into my campaign. In this world non-church magic is considered illegal and the church has full authority to enforce it. So, magic items such as mana stones and open-market mana stores are not realistic. Plus, the problem I have with mana stones is that it equates magic to a commodity to be traded. (Oh crap, I forgot my mana stone!) Disclaimer: That's an opinion. :)

Also part of my adventure world is that war mages were previously (before magic was illegal) used to help tip the balance against the Orc hordes. Since man has fallen and all that remains are small city-states. In the game, my mage player is an distant offspring of these mages.

Based on what I read, I might be ok by introducing more mana stones (or plants), adding the new range rules, and encouraging the mage to spend points on spell-only fatigue (dropping the 30% requirement).

If anyone hasn't yet read S John's unlimited mana rules, they are here: http://www.io.com/~sjohn/unlimited-mana.htm. S John is much better at describing the effect I'm looking for.

One final point.. All my characters are between 180-200 (due to 4th edition conversion hiccups). For those of you questioning the ability of warriors to deal out damage, you might want to look a little closer. I don't have any materials in front of me right now, but they can swing with NO fatigue cost. In GURPS, mages simply cannot deal damage like warriors.. even if you make a mage dedicate to the application of damage. I'm not sure how anyone can argue against that. Even if a mage can spit out a 3d damage per turn, he can't do it as long as warrior can.

[Extrarius]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

[...]I can't say I agree with those that say that Mages aren't nerfed, albiet that is really dependent on the types of spells that mage has and how effective he is at using them. I should not have used "nerf" in the title because most of the responses I got were opportunity fire instead of a detailed look at my recommendations. My perspective on this comes from LOTS of arena type playtesting.[...]

You really need to explain what you find wrong with them to get more help. You say they're not doing enough damage, but why not? There are plenty of very high damage spells, and plenty of spells that can do several dice of damage every turn that cost very little with decent skill (the __ jet spells, for example). If you have a 3v3, for example, have 2 fighters each fight one person and the mage stands back and makes a 9d fireball and takes out the third (31 average damage should AT LEAST knock him out) in 4 seconds.

Don't forget that mages can wear armor just fine, can use shields without penalty, and shouldn't have any problem taking one or two weapon skills at a decent level. You don't have to spend many points to be a decent fighter, so a mage should be able to do ok in melee without magic. Add in magic and mages get pretty scary, especially if they had a turn or two to prepare. Levitation plus Missile Shield is a combination often talked about on these forums for good reason

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

My perspective on this comes from LOTS of arena type playtesting.

Mmm, but many of us have lots of experience there, not to insult your own. The issue is more with the desire to compete in an arena. The GURPS point system in general -- not just magic -- isn't intended to balance combat effectiveness. Its goal is to balance ability across all possible adventuring activities: combat, crafting, healing & support, information gathering, outdoorsmanship, social interaction, stealth, travel, etc. Mages are so overwhelmingly capable at almost all of the noncombat fields that there's no special need to grant them superiority or even parity at combat. I'd actually dispute their ineptitude at combat -- because a skilled player can create quite a combat-monster wizard -- but even if I did not, such a weakness would not concern me much.

I've said it lots, but I'll say it again: GURPS isn't an objective system for rating PvP capability in a mainly combat environment. It's a highly subjective system for use by GMs to rate PCs against the challenges of an entire campaign -- including social challenges, obstacles to travel, economic puzzles, intellectual riddles, and many other things that have no connection to fighting. I'm not sure that you can use GURPS in an arena setting without walling off the numerous parts of the system that have nothing to do with combat and/or that require GM judgment.

[robertsconley]

So you know where I am coming from My own high powered mage campaign was played for two years under the following rules.

1) Magery gives Magic Resistance * 5 with the advantage is that person with this type of magery still can cast spells with no penalty. This to simulate Ars Magica's Parma Magica. I kept the cost of magery with MR at (15,10,10) and reduced normal magery down to (10,8,8) (this being 3rd edition)

2) For skill 20 and every 5 skills higher you got +1 to critical up to a 11 or less
3) For doubling of time you get +1 to skill, this can lead to reduced energy
4) For doubling of energy you get +1 skill, this can lead to reduced time
5) In addition to powerstone you could find and harvest VIS each was a 1 use only powerstone.

For two years everyone played a mage (about 4 players) under these rules.

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

(1) Mitigate the enormous range penalty of non-touch regular spells by increasing the range incriment by their level of magery. (I.e. range penalty = range/magery rounded up)
I got this idea from another post which used a similar concept but skill instead of magery (sorry can't find it for linking). I prefer not to use skill as the limit for range because I don't want to totally negate the cost of range, just minimize it.

Most of the mages in my games used spells like daze. Easily gotten low energy spells that incapacitate non-mages. It was hard to make any non-magical challengers for the group and the magical ones either were either quickly brought down or quickly brought down the group. There was no in-between. This sucked in my opinion and made it hard at times to make fun adventures.

My game was run before the Rule of 16 but even with the Rule of 16 you are still taking about a high probability that non-mages will go down quickly. With the range modifier mitigated it just makes it worse and further hurts your ability to make challenging and interesting encounters.

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

(2) Lower the final cost by a "success-by" cost redux. (I.e. For each success by X amount, the cost of the spell is lowered by one.) I got this idea from here: http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=1952. But I'd prefer not to require the mage to pay more than normal on a failure. This is an interesting idea, but not someting that can create the conditions I'm looking for all by itself.

I found the double time or energy for +1 works great to give the players that extra flexibility they want. Most of the mages that played had an emergency stash of vis they used to cast a high powered spell quickly in an emergency.

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

(3) Go with a modified version of S John's unlimited mana rules at http://www.io.com/~sjohn/unlimited-mana.htm. I'd prefer not to use the calamity rules in favor of spell points that are limited by 5x or 10x the wizard's magery level. The great thing about this is that it allows the mage to sling some powerful spells, but I don't want to keep track of a separate recovery (other than fatigue).

I used Unlimited mana for clerical magic only to give it a distinct feel. It worked well in that role. I based recovery on various acts of piety and it really helps clerics get into the feel that they are servants of their god.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/clerical.html

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

(4) Allow/encourage the mage to purchase magic-only fatigue and allow him to exceed the 30% HP limit (B16). (I think I saw this option in the rules somewhere.. Hmm... Was this from 3e?)

The use of vis in my games eliminated interest in extra fatique. A few points were taken at character creation but not afterwards. They adventured for and found vis springs. Then safeguarded them so that they had a steady supply that they can return too.

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

(5) Create a new spell for the mage called "Collect Mana" which can harness mana from the environment for use on the next spell (and ONLY the next spell). The mage could spend, say, 10 seconds for each mana point up to his magery level. (I.e. A wizard with magery 6 could spend up to 60 seconds to gather 6 mana for use on his next spell.) (Note: I stole this idea from Mab's post: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=28)
I like the idea, but my big worry is that it might unbalance the game. It essentially makes non-urgent spells free. Then again, I've been reminded that the Recover Energy spell (at level 20) allows the recovery of 1 FP per 2 minutes.

This is similar to my time for skill. I would considered somehow increase the time to do this. Basically what players did in my game was two things:

First mundane spells that they used for "quality of life" stuff became a non issue as far as energy and skill. Just roll and don't roll a 18. 17 re-roll

Second, they need to teleport somewhere, scry or overcome something in non-combat time. They boost their skill up to where it was needed. For example spend a half a day casting a teleport to blow by magical protections.

One mage had a trick where he used teleport other on a target and teleported just the person and nothing non-living. He needed a high skill level and would spend several minute before a field battle and then hit one of the leaders with this. Then the battle would begin.

This worked until the day he tried to do this with a shapeshifted Dragon that was leading an army. Luckily he had enough powerstones, vis so that the fatigue drain didn't quite kill him.

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

So, what does everyone think of these ideas? Are there others? Has anyone play-tested these? Lessons learned?

I think the most important rule is the Rule of 16. My group thinks it too drastic and I agree 16 seems too low. So we are going with a rule of 20/resist +4. In addition going with +1 to the cap for every 5 levels above 20.

For addition comments what I did for my all mage game you can look at

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/magic.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/MagicRules.html

Hope this helps.

Rob Conley