Default DriveThruRPG, community content and writing for GURPS - Page 2

Empada · 08-03-2018, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace

See Hall of Judgement for this approach.
He wrote it for a D&D variant then adapted it for GURPS and is publishing it on his own with the respective companies permission.

W23 does sell stuff from other companies or people.
And that includes free stuff. So if your able and willing to publish quality stuff to PDF just talk to them about it and see what arrangements are needed.
If its going to be free its one deal, if your selling it for profit thats another arrangement. But SJG are willing to do it with at least some people.

Yes, but he already published a lot of articles in Pyramid, Technical Grappling... I don't think SJG would have a lot of spare time to spend with newcomers.

Refplace · 08-03-2018, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empada

Yes, but he already published a lot of articles in Pyramid, Technical Grappling... I don't think SJG would have a lot of spare time to spend with newcomers.

Thats true, but they havent for awhile. I had several submissions for Pyramid turned down for poor writing or just not good enough for that issue compared to the competition. I have a group that tries to help, its not very active, one poster who pretty much needs no formatting help so gets few comments on his stuff but anyone serious about writing is welcome to join. Its less useful with Pyramid going away but learning the style guide is essential to getting published.

Empada · 08-05-2018, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace

Thats true, but they havent for awhile. I had several submissions for Pyramid turned down for poor writing or just not good enough for that issue compared to the competition. I have a group that tries to help, its not very active, one poster who pretty much needs no formatting help so gets few comments on his stuff but anyone serious about writing is welcome to join. Its less useful with Pyramid going away but learning the style guide is essential to getting published.

I have interest in being part of this group, but I can only be an active member after 2019. how can I join?

Refplace · 08-05-2018, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empada

I have interest in being part of this group, but I can only be an active member after 2019. how can I join?

Last item in my Sig. Its a Yahoo group. one member was going to do a website but life got in the way so I opted for this method. Be sure to check the links section for additional info and tips.

MadCoder · 06-12-2019, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gollum

Thank you very much for that distinction between writing and selling, which really helps to understand Steve Jackson Games point of view.

But there is another important one to take into account. Writing and being read.

Without necessarilly wanting to earn money, someone who takes a lot of time to write an adventure (or anything else for GURPS) usually hopes that it will be useful for others. The problem with personnal websites is precisely that GURPS fans don't necessary know that they do exist and, even if they know it, don't necessarilly know that they propose what they would like to have.

I didn't know at all that you wrote some fantasy adventures for instance.

Worse: more there will be personnal websites and more it will be hard to know what does exist and where it is.

The advantage of somethink like the Miskatonic Repository is that everything is in the same place. And people who go there perfectly understand that it is not Chaosium products, so that the quality will differ from a true Chaosium product. Everything is clearly explained and there is no possible confusion.

In my humble opinion, GURPS staff is not big enough to have an active participation in everything which could be published for GURPS, showing that the game is played and attractive. A lot of people would like to have adventures. They don't have time to write them. Letting amateurs writing and publishing adventures and putting them in a place clearly defined as "amateur" work would solve the problem.

I agree with Gollum and I would like this thread to get some attention, there are people posting on Facebook, Reddit, Discord, and other places that would like to post community content to help drive more interest in GURPS. The DriveThruRPG does provide a lot of community content and it is a well known site, you don't have to search through forums, google , etc to find adventures. As someone who doesn't have a lot of time, I have used a lot of one shot adventures that ranged from free to $5, most of them Supers! based. Which saved me a lot of time and the adventures were decent, the hard work was creating the villains and characters in GURPS and making maps.

Personally, I would post content for others to use, not to make money. If anything, a good reason to charge money is to recoup cost for artwork or maybe to cover the time you invested. In comparison, the work Douglas H Cole is doing is professional level and his latest work required Kickstarters.

I do believe Steve Jackson's is missing an opportunity in showing that it has a community that wants to contribute to the game system. In addition, I noticed there are beginners starting GURPS that ask how to get started. If there's more entry level or short adventures for different genres, it would make it easier.

DrivethruRPG.com has a number of game companies, including Wizards of the Coast, that support community content and provide guidelines.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/cc/0/default

Refplace · 06-12-2019, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadCoder

Personally, I would post content for others to use, not to make money. If anything, a good reason to charge money is to recoup cost for artwork or maybe to cover the time you invested. In comparison, the work Douglas H Cole is doing is professional level and his latest work required Kickstarters.

DrivethruRPG.com has a number of game companies, including Wizards of the Coast, that support community content and provide guidelines.

If someone charges money for a product that is a whole other legal setup and SJG needs to protect its intellectual property.
If they allow people to do that without specifically getting permission they lose control. I also think its naive to think that poor quality third party products wont negatively reflect on SJG. Its diluting the SJG brand name.

Free fan content is already allowed within certain guidelines.

dbm · 06-12-2019, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace

If someone charges money for a product that is a whole other legal setup and SJG needs to protect its intellectual property.
If they allow people to do that without specifically getting permission they lose control.

There are two different things here. IP, and control. Given that other companies (even companies with less resources than SJG, like Monte Cooke Games) can get this to work from an IP perspective I am confident that SJG could, too.

In terms of control, I am not convinced there is a strong argument that it is something that needs to be controlled so tightly. Too tight a grip requires active management that naturally slows down the rate of production for third party product.

Quote:

I also think its naive to think that poor quality third party products wont negatively reflect on SJG. Its diluting the SJG brand name.

I think it is equally naive to think that modern consumers of RP products can’t differentiate between first party, third party and community products. That is the new normal for people who buy PDF materials. The move by SJG to selling through DriveThru was a big positive step, in my opinion, as that is where most people tend to go when looking for RPGs in PDF. DriveThru also host multiple community content portals already and people ‘get it’.

robertsconley · 06-12-2019, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace

If they allow people to do that without specifically getting permission they lose control. I also think its naive to think that poor quality third party products wont negatively reflect on SJG. Its diluting the SJG brand name.

In 2019 there are numerous examples of companies sharing their IP. It a matter of saying we are not going to do this ever or adapt one of the available models.

The only thing that unique about SJ Games compared to the rest of the industry is that they have a store front designed to support other company's products both physical and digital in the form of Warehouse 23.

Each of these have their own tradeoff in terms of IP control and labor involved by the IP holder.

We are nearly two decades in with the Open Game Licenses. Not just with D&D related RPGs but with other systems like Fate.

You have the Savage Worlds IP model

You have the Community Content model of DriveThruRPG.

and so on.

Based on past discussions, Steve Jackson and his staff view on IP control and involvement. The best fit would be a Community Content program like DriveThruRPG hosted on Warehouse23.

Minus the restriction on derivative works that DriveThruRPG imposes. Otherwise very few will publish an original setting using the program as that clause locks all future works to the platform.

It not the one I would like but it one that I feel is the most realistic given all the factor in this situation.

robertsconley · 06-12-2019, 07:17 AM

Some further comments

The fundamental issue is that digital technology and open third party publishing programs has lowered the barriers to publishing in the RPG industry.

The state of Digital Technology means that people can write, edit, layout, obtain art, sell, and distribute within the time one has for a hobby. Mostly because the ease of communication enabled by the internet allows ad-hoc teams to develop, assemble, and do work far easier than two decades ago.

Open third party publishing programs mean anybody can take a advantage to publish a work. Some are more restrictive than others. The most famous are the various systems released as open content under the Open Game License. But there are many other now especially since DriveThruRPG instituted their community content program.

The prevalence of 3PP, particularly for D&D, means that you no longer has to start with writing a rules system to get your idea out there. For those under the OGL, you could copy and alter the rule system but most just take what there and build on top of it to publish adventures, settings, supplements, or a dozen other creative ideas. This has been a consistent pattern for several decades now.

Even within the OSR and its focus on classic D&D using the OGL, the number of clone RPG is dwarfed by the number of supplements, settings, adventures, and aide that are avaliable. Something you can see by browsing the OSR section on DriveThruRPG.

The result is that the systems that have a open 3PP have more "life" than systems that don't. Many RPGs are in the midst of a Golden Age because of these programs whether they use the OGL or something else.

Finally I have the feeling that there is enough variety in 2019 and enough time has passed compared to 2010 or 2001 that somebody could do a serious marketing study or academic paper on the topic. To gauge the benefits and downsides of open 3PPs.

robertsconley · 06-12-2019, 08:05 AM

I been publishing my own material for ten years now. Mostly dealing with older edition rules or clones like Swords & Wizardry and the Judges Guild Wilderlands series.

I am also an advocate for open content licenses and the Open Game License. Because of this, I try to keep up with what people are doing with open content license.

My opinion if SJ Games released open content rules for GURPS what would happen is the same thing that happen for the past two years with Traveller. I am picking this scenario not because it likely but because it is the worst case for content and quality control. If you want the details open the spoiler below.

Spoiler:

Around 2010 Mongoose Traveller 1st edition was released. Along with the release of the rules a System Reference Documents was released under the Open Game License. It was not complete MongooseTraveller rules. But it enough to allow adventures, supplements, and setting to be published.

This is not the interesting part. For that we need to time travel to 2016.

In 2016, the 3PP market for Mongoose Traveller is small. A dozen publisher and that being generous. The dedicated publishers are invariably focused on ther own original settings as outside of the Foreven sector the Third Imperium setting has no open 3P program.

Mongoose begins working on Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition. Along with that is the promise of a new 3PP that will also include the Third Imperium. It won't be under the OGL but it will finally open up the Third Imperium for people to play around with.

As development continued details about the 3PP came out that it will be a Community Content program under DriveThruRPG. (The fourth one I believe after Wizards, Cypher, and Cortex).

So in 2017 the day comes when the new edition is released and the TAS 3PP is opened on DriveThruRPG. Immediately there is an uproar among the pre-existing 3PP. There was a provision of the boilerplate license that DriveThru uses that restricts all derivative works to the community content program.

Which meant if you published an original setting using the TAS anything based on that setting could only ever be published on the TAS even if you use a different set of rules. At the time the DM's Guild restricted settings to generic or Forgotten Realm so none of the existing 3P publishers saw this coming.

The word spread quickly and all of the existing Traveller 3P publishers aborted their releases on the TAS.

Then a few months later, Jason Kemp use the Open Content of Traveller d20, and Mongoose Traveller 1st edition, and his own original work to make a clone of Mongoose Traveller 1e that was a complete RPG.

The existing Traveller 3P Publishers adopted it for their products. Some just writing supplements, while other like Gypsy Knight making their own variant.

As a result of a licensing screwup by Mongoose for the open 3PP for Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition the first Traveller RPG clone was created and widely used by the end of 2017. This is known as the Cepheus Game Engine.

So what happened since?

Basically the variety and number of Traveller products has increased. Mongoose has released several well received products for MgT2e like the Rifts boxed set. The number of products released for the Cepheus Game Engine numbers in the low hundreds. And Marc Miller, the original author of Traveller, had a successful kickstarter and is about to release a new edition of Traveller 5.

Sounds like Traveller is in a healthy place. The Traveller hobby has a wide variety of products to choose from. Granted there is a wide variety of production values however the low end is not swamping the high material especially those are produced by Mongoose.

My opinion is that the hobby fans of Traveller and the hobby fans of GURPS are comparable in size and composition.

1) Both appreciate detailed mechanics
2) Both are fragmented into many subgroups, Traveller because of multiple editions, and original setting vs the Third Imperium. GURPS because it is designed as a generic toolkit to support all genres and a variety of play styles.
3) Both are well known system recognized as leaders within their respective niches that historically sat below the 800 lb gorilla that is Dungeons & Dragons.
4) Both have active publishers that support it. Both have their original authors involved.

While there are differences they are outweighed by the similarities.

So my prediction is thus. If SJ Game was to release a SRD that was open content under the OGL. It would dramatically increase the variety and number of GURPS releated works. It would not impact the quality or release schedule of what SJ Games does. There would be a considerable crossover of support between the different subgroups.

Why?
Because at the level of GURPS and Traveller is more about the reputation of the author or company than the brand. With GURPS and Traveller hobbyists know what they are getting when they sign on. What they don't know is how well the products that John Doe or Acme write will support that.

06-12-2019, 07:17 AM	#19
robertsconley Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: Default DriveThruRPG, community content and writing for GURPS Some further comments The fundamental issue is that digital technology and open third party publishing programs has lowered the barriers to publishing in the RPG industry. The state of Digital Technology means that people can write, edit, layout, obtain art, sell, and distribute within the time one has for a hobby. Mostly because the ease of communication enabled by the internet allows ad-hoc teams to develop, assemble, and do work far easier than two decades ago. Open third party publishing programs mean anybody can take a advantage to publish a work. Some are more restrictive than others. The most famous are the various systems released as open content under the Open Game License. But there are many other now especially since DriveThruRPG instituted their community content program. The prevalence of 3PP, particularly for D&D, means that you no longer has to start with writing a rules system to get your idea out there. For those under the OGL, you could copy and alter the rule system but most just take what there and build on top of it to publish adventures, settings, supplements, or a dozen other creative ideas. This has been a consistent pattern for several decades now. Even within the OSR and its focus on classic D&D using the OGL, the number of clone RPG is dwarfed by the number of supplements, settings, adventures, and aide that are avaliable. Something you can see by browsing the OSR section on DriveThruRPG. The result is that the systems that have a open 3PP have more "life" than systems that don't. Many RPGs are in the midst of a Golden Age because of these programs whether they use the OGL or something else. Finally I have the feeling that there is enough variety in 2019 and enough time has passed compared to 2010 or 2001 that somebody could do a serious marketing study or academic paper on the topic. To gauge the benefits and downsides of open 3PPs.

06-12-2019, 08:05 AM	#20
robertsconley Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: Default DriveThruRPG, community content and writing for GURPS I been publishing my own material for ten years now. Mostly dealing with older edition rules or clones like Swords & Wizardry and the Judges Guild Wilderlands series. I am also an advocate for open content licenses and the Open Game License. Because of this, I try to keep up with what people are doing with open content license. My opinion if SJ Games released open content rules for GURPS what would happen is the same thing that happen for the past two years with Traveller. I am picking this scenario not because it likely but because it is the worst case for content and quality control. If you want the details open the spoiler below. Spoiler: Around 2010 Mongoose Traveller 1st edition was released. Along with the release of the rules a System Reference Documents was released under the Open Game License. It was not complete MongooseTraveller rules. But it enough to allow adventures, supplements, and setting to be published. This is not the interesting part. For that we need to time travel to 2016. In 2016, the 3PP market for Mongoose Traveller is small. A dozen publisher and that being generous. The dedicated publishers are invariably focused on ther own original settings as outside of the Foreven sector the Third Imperium setting has no open 3P program. Mongoose begins working on Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition. Along with that is the promise of a new 3PP that will also include the Third Imperium. It won't be under the OGL but it will finally open up the Third Imperium for people to play around with. As development continued details about the 3PP came out that it will be a Community Content program under DriveThruRPG. (The fourth one I believe after Wizards, Cypher, and Cortex). So in 2017 the day comes when the new edition is released and the TAS 3PP is opened on DriveThruRPG. Immediately there is an uproar among the pre-existing 3PP. There was a provision of the boilerplate license that DriveThru uses that restricts all derivative works to the community content program. Which meant if you published an original setting using the TAS anything based on that setting could only ever be published on the TAS even if you use a different set of rules. At the time the DM's Guild restricted settings to generic or Forgotten Realm so none of the existing 3P publishers saw this coming. The word spread quickly and all of the existing Traveller 3P publishers aborted their releases on the TAS. Then a few months later, Jason Kemp use the Open Content of Traveller d20, and Mongoose Traveller 1st edition, and his own original work to make a clone of Mongoose Traveller 1e that was a complete RPG. The existing Traveller 3P Publishers adopted it for their products. Some just writing supplements, while other like Gypsy Knight making their own variant. As a result of a licensing screwup by Mongoose for the open 3PP for Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition the first Traveller RPG clone was created and widely used by the end of 2017. This is known as the Cepheus Game Engine. So what happened since? Basically the variety and number of Traveller products has increased. Mongoose has released several well received products for MgT2e like the Rifts boxed set. The number of products released for the Cepheus Game Engine numbers in the low hundreds. And Marc Miller, the original author of Traveller, had a successful kickstarter and is about to release a new edition of Traveller 5. Sounds like Traveller is in a healthy place. The Traveller hobby has a wide variety of products to choose from. Granted there is a wide variety of production values however the low end is not swamping the high material especially those are produced by Mongoose. My opinion is that the hobby fans of Traveller and the hobby fans of GURPS are comparable in size and composition. 1) Both appreciate detailed mechanics 2) Both are fragmented into many subgroups, Traveller because of multiple editions, and original setting vs the Third Imperium. GURPS because it is designed as a generic toolkit to support all genres and a variety of play styles. 3) Both are well known system recognized as leaders within their respective niches that historically sat below the 800 lb gorilla that is Dungeons & Dragons. 4) Both have active publishers that support it. Both have their original authors involved. While there are differences they are outweighed by the similarities. So my prediction is thus. If SJ Game was to release a SRD that was open content under the OGL. It would dramatically increase the variety and number of GURPS releated works. It would not impact the quality or release schedule of what SJ Games does. There would be a considerable crossover of support between the different subgroups. Why? Because at the level of GURPS and Traveller is more about the reputation of the author or company than the brand. With GURPS and Traveller hobbyists know what they are getting when they sign on. What they don't know is how well the products that John Doe or Acme write will support that.