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Old 03-23-2021, 12:20 PM   #31
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
  1. Any fatigue can be countered with Drain Strength, Mana or Powerstones.
  2. Aid can't boost an effective attribute by more than five points.
  3. Aid can be used to pay for "very high ST cost" spells.
Therefore if a ST 10 wizard is given 50 points of Aided ST then he hits for unarmed damage and can lift weights as per ST 15.

If in this time he is hit for 15 points he falls unconscious and another point will kill him.

He can pay any fatigue cost he suffers during the two turns of effect (but not previous expenditure) from the 50 points of Aided ST.

If he was hit for 12 points then he would die once the Aid wears off.
I'm with you all the way 'til the last sentence. In fact, it's quite a good reading of how the use of Aid in spell-casting is consistent with the limitation of 5 attribute enhancers.

Here are the three possibilities for how Aid works when current ST is reduced for some reason.

(1) If a spell is cast, fatigue is taken off of the Aid reserve first.
(2) If fatigue arises for any other reason, it is taken off of the Aid reserve first.
(3) If wounds are taken for any reason, they are taken off the Aid reserve first.

Far as I know, everyone accepts (1). Skarg rejects (2), but I don't know about others. I'm the only one vocal about accepting (3) given (1) and (2).
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Old 03-23-2021, 01:29 PM   #32
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Far as I know, everyone accepts (1). Skarg rejects (2), but I don't know about others. I'm the only one vocal about accepting (3) given (1) and (2).
I'm not sure there is a way to reconcile them all satisfactorily. If one accepts that, by way of Aid, one can accrue an amount of fatigue greater than one's natural capacity without dying, then there is the sticky problem why wounds aren't treated the same way. And if one doesn't accept it, then there is the problem of how Aid is clearly meant to work with regards to spreading the cost of spells over more than one person.

A GM could just say that when aiding ST it also confers an equal amount of mana. That way, spells the subject casts use that, not fatigue, and mundane tallies against ST (fatigue and wounds) that exceed the subject's natural capacity will kill the Aided figure upon the spell's expiration. But that's definitely adding something that isn't specifically mentioned in the rules.
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Old 03-23-2021, 04:11 PM   #33
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

I pretty much agree with all that hcobb wrote in that most recent post. (I can think of some fiddly edge cases about timing, but I don't want to get into that now.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
...
Here are the three possibilities for how Aid works when current ST is reduced for some reason.

(1) If a spell is cast, fatigue is taken off of the Aid reserve first.
(2) If fatigue arises for any other reason, it is taken off of the Aid reserve first.
(3) If wounds are taken for any reason, they are taken off the Aid reserve first.

Far as I know, everyone accepts (1). Skarg rejects (2), but I don't know about others. I'm the only one vocal about accepting (3) given (1) and (2).
I would say:
(1) Yes. (The caster might choose to use their own ST, but almost never would.)
(2) This is actually ok with me. I think it's unclear RAW, but a simple and reasonable way to do it. EDIT: But I think it's perhaps more likely that the intention is that since the spell specifically/only says it can be used to cast spells, that it doesn't let you use the spell's ST for other causes of fatigue.
(3) This is the one I really don't like. I don't think Aid ST gives you a damage sponge; I think it increases your ST for 2 turns. I think a wound is physical damage that an Aid spell can indirectly help you endure for 2 turns but has no power to make vanish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
I'm not sure there is a way to reconcile them all satisfactorily. If one accepts that, by way of Aid, one can accrue an amount of fatigue greater than one's natural capacity without dying, then there is the sticky problem why wounds aren't treated the same way. And if one doesn't accept it, then there is the problem of how Aid is clearly meant to work with regards to spreading the cost of spells over more than one person.

A GM could just say that when aiding ST it also confers an equal amount of mana. That way, spells the subject casts use that, not fatigue, and mundane tallies against ST (fatigue and wounds) that exceed the subject's natural capacity will kill the Aided figure upon the spell's expiration. But that's definitely adding something that isn't specifically mentioned in the rules.
It's not the Aid spell that's letting you use more ST than you have to kill yourself. That's just a possible effect of the very rare case of someone going berserk and ending up with ST 0 or 1 when berserk wears off, then losing 2 when berserk ends. And the question about how that combines with Aid is really about whether whether you can use Aid ST to recover berserk ST, and/or fatigue that was "really" caused before the Aid spell, and/or how you actually resolve the effect of coming out of berserk (i.e. a GM might allow you to count it against Aid ST if the berserk doesn't knock you unconscious or kill you first). But really, all that's about the edge case of berserk interacting with Aid, not really about Aid itself.


It also sounds to me like people are trying to think about Aid in a way that they think is simpler, but actually makes it more complicated.

I think about it like the spell says:

* Aid ST is a spell that for 2 turns, adds to your effective ST.
* You can use the spell's ST to cast spells until it wears off, after which any unused ST is lost.

So for the question about the more significant and common situation of normal damage, to me it seems clear that if you suffer a wound while you have an Aid ST spell going, your body takes the full damage, and the Aid ST spell just helps you survive it until the Aid spell wears off. The spell does not say it can be used to make damage to you apply to the spell and not to your body.

So if I have ST 10 and Aid ST +5, and I take 4 damage, I'd write:

ST 10, Aid ST +5, -4 stab

When the spell wears off, I erase the "Aid ST +5", leaving:

ST 10, -4 stab

Last edited by Skarg; 03-23-2021 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 03-23-2021, 05:44 PM   #34
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

Skarg's post made me think. Here's what the text of Aid says (ITL 18):
Quote:
to cast it. Lasts 2 turns.
If ST is given to another figure (for instance, to allow
another wizard to cast a spell with a very high ST cost),
that ST must be used within 2 turns, or it is lost.
Look, I'm a philosopher and logician by training, so I'm probably overthinking things, but the use of the verb "used" implies intention. One uses up an Aid ST reserve by intentional actions. Receiving damage isn't intentional, whereas casting spells is. So, if we take the meaning of the words seriously, we have a reason for treating damage different than fatigue.

Also, sorry if I misrepresented you, Skarg. If I understand correctly, the 2 fatigue from berserk is, in your opinion, a debt taken whenever one goes berserk. If he goes berserk, receives Aid and comes out while the Aid is in effect, you don't count that as using up Aid ST because the debt was there before the spell was cast. Or something.

No doubt I'm overthinking things. I ain't never had a player cast Aid ever.
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Old 03-23-2021, 08:17 PM   #35
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

It's really great to hear people share their thoughts about how this humble spell works. It may seem like an edge case w/berserking, and therefor kind of academic, but I've got some nasties in my game that inflict fatigue instead of wounds, and it could come up more frequently than almost never. What a great forum!
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Old 03-23-2021, 11:14 PM   #36
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
... Also, sorry if I misrepresented you, Skarg. If I understand correctly, the 2 fatigue from berserk is, in your opinion, a debt taken whenever one goes berserk. If he goes berserk, receives Aid and comes out while the Aid is in effect, you don't count that as using up Aid ST because the debt was there before the spell was cast. Or something.
No worries.

That's one of my lines of reasoning, which all lead me to the same conclusion for my own games.

The simplest line of reasoning for me is that the spell only mentions you can use Aid ST to cast spells. It doesn't say you can use it for absorbing wounds. Seems to me the spell makes your ST attribute go up for two turns. After that, your ST attribute stops being boosted. That to me has nothing to do with making injuries vanish. And I tend to think it wouldn't have to do with non-spell types of exertion either, but I'm not bothered if my GM says he'll let non-spell fatigue use up Aid ST. (I'm just kind of bothered when it can make wounds vanish.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No doubt I'm overthinking things. I ain't never had a player cast Aid ever.
Wow! It can be a really, really useful spell when used in, well, many ways. (Yet another minor side reason I don't want it to be also a wound-absorbtion spell.)
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Old 03-24-2021, 12:34 AM   #37
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I ain't never had a player cast Aid ever.
I'm so glad you said that, I was beginning to think I was the only one!

Most wizards were so anemic no one ever gave away a point of ST. By the end of most fights, the wizards that weren't dead or unconscious were all weaving at -3 DX for low ST. Mine didn't even waste a memory slot learning Aid.
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Old 03-24-2021, 03:14 AM   #38
timm meyers
 
Join Date: May 2020
Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

Magic is what magic is....
The rule intent is obvious that aid is for acolytes to assist other magi in creating greater magic, i.e. acting as a living ST battery.

Aid is a common "job" spell and as mentioned few if any players actually take the spell and even then never use it in a tactical combat.

Does anyone really think a wizard aiding another character with +3 ST and that character then has a one time buffer stopping 3 of an 8 hit blow so they only take 5 hits is a game changer? You can describe the effect anyway you want to. The Mana flares away, the aura or essence of magic dulls the hit etc etc.

I personally would love to see Bill and Ted with a 10 ST attribute dragging a battleaxe around. Then try to muscle their way through a fight with aid assisted combat ST 15 swinging freely for 2 turns and absorbing 5 hits from the first blow in that time. Better yet I am going to pull this on the next adventure and watch the humorous reaction I get from the players as they chop them to pieces.
wait, what about the evil boss who has magic items?
"hey guys the mana battery wizard just cast a 10 ST aid on himself, how are we going to get past that to do real damage to him?"
"Ummm, wait 2 turns...."
"hey at least he aint throwing fireballs at us"
"why didn't he summon a dragon?"
"He will dummy, so hurry up and shoot him and maybe we can get rid of some before he uses it."
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Old 03-24-2021, 08:19 PM   #39
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

After having had the benefit of many points of view, I've been able to come up with a visualization that satisfies me with its illustration of why fatigue might be chalked up to Aided ST while wounds would not be. My thinking:

Aided ST is like fuel which one burns with fatigue. The Aid spell temporarily expands the tank and fills it with a quantity of fuel. If one has burnt the amount of Aided fuel or less when the spell wears expires, their fuel level would be the same as it was before Aid was cast. Wounds, however, do not burn fuel. Instead, wounds can be thought of as fuel lost due to holes punctured into the tank which drain the fuel down to their level. If someone whose ST has been increased with Aid is wounded during the duration of the spell, the fuel is drained down to the level of the hole. But, when the spell expires, the extra fuel that was put in the tank, having not been burned for fatigue, disappears, and leaves the fuel level lower than the hole in the tank. If the hole was at a point on the tank at or below the level that determines a volume no greater than the quantity of fuel provided by the Aid spell, the tank will be empty when the fuel disappears upon the spell's expiration and the subject dies.

So, with this conceptualization as a guide, I'd let mundane fatigue (but not wounds) draw from Aided ST.
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Old 03-24-2021, 09:44 PM   #40
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

Man, that's an analogy.

But there's no gasoline on Cidri, so I don't think it works.

I haven't totally decided which way to go on this, to be honest. Most people are settled that Aid counts for fatigue or at least some kinds of fatigue but not damage. I can see the reasoning and I can see the game balance argument. I don't really have a good principle for distinguishing the two however.

But this analogy isn't too bad. Might succumb to peer pressure and accept the prevailing view. After all, all the cool kids don't subtract wounds. I want to be cool.

And, on the offhand some player starts abusing Aid, I'll have a good story why they can't do it. It's like gasoline, see...

All of this consternation just because someone asked about the Death Spell.
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