Brawling once again

[hcobb]

A very fine dagger is only $200 which gives you base ST damage +5 in HTH.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades

I've seen a lot of people say to only allow the dirty fighting bonus in cases where everyone is (mostly) fighting 'fair' in the first place, perhaps defined by only going for fatigue damage? In which case using dirty fighting may have social consequences. Note I'd still let dirty fighting count only towards fatigue damage. In such a context, the second someone draws a knife (or tries to?) you lose your +2 and revert to +1 (although this still comes out to +2 in HTH).

Another result of this is that in a non-fair fight (i.e. in combat) it comes out as just being a cheap and non-upgradable Unmanned Combat I. I think that nicely reflects the less martial focus of Brawling and the overall aspirations of martial arts.

I've often thought about the fact that in TFT, damage in HTH is just the same is in regular combat. I haven't thought about the possibility of declaring that you're just doing fatigue damage. The closest thing I've seen in RAW is attacking to subdue, but even in HTH, the damage is figured as wounds and not fatigue.

I'm thinking I might follow Lars's lead and drop the +1 bonus in HTH, since it makes brawling just as good as having a dagger.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

A very fine dagger is only $200 which gives you base ST damage +5 in HTH.

That's all well and good, but I'm still not comfortable with brawling being as effective as a normal garden variety dagger.

[hcobb]

Take a standard dagger apply Dagger Expertise and make aimed blows in HTH and you replicate the historical method of dispatching fools in fine plate.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Take a standard dagger apply Dagger Expertise and make aimed blows in HTH and you replicate the historical method of dispatching fools in fine plate.

That's nice to know. Not quite on point, but whatever.

Henry, I appreciate many of your contributions, I really do, but this tendency to go on a tangent about how this or that optimized character and equipment can maximize your effectiveness is not always useful. I think my question was fairly clear and straightforward. I'm talking about vanilla characters, not folks who've purposely optimized their ability to engage in HTH.

I guess I should give you some credit for only suggesting Dagger Expertise and not Mastery.

[hcobb]

Taking the Brawling talent indicates some dedication to HTH.

A reasonable balance point would be to apply the dirty fighting bonus once (at most) to each combat. After that point everybody is warned and the bonus no longer applies.

[Skarg]

* "Dirty" Brawling giving +2 damage in deadly combat is too good. However it seems to me that there is a RAW cure for this if read/remember the Taking Prisoners section of the rules (ITL p. 126), where it says, in part:

"From time to time, the players may wish to take a foe prisoner rather than killing him – or they may wish to settle differences among themselves with a non-lethal brawl rather than a duel to the death.

If you wish to subdue a foe rather than killing him, you may “pull” your blows, strike with the flat of the blade, etc. Tell the GM that you are attempting to take the foe prisoner.
All your blows then do half damage (rounded down). In addition, your blows will not kill your foe; any hits he takes which would drive his ST below 0 are simply not counted. ..."

So in a friendly (or I'd say even a "dirty") _brawl_ (as opposed to homicidal unarmed combat), you'd be doing HALF DAMAGE (and wouldn't kill unless you rolled a double or triple damage).

So I don't think the +2 damage would be usable for lethal combat, which is good because it's only 1 (if you don't stack the usual unarmed bonus) or zero (if you do stack it) damage points shy of a dagger in HTH, which I'd hope would be obviously wrong and/or undesirable.


* The line:

"A fighter in hand-to-hand combat does the appropriate amount of damage for his ST as above, plus 1 ..."

is NOT about the word "fighter", which has no rules definition nor significance. The +1 is for any figure in HTH, as opposed to figures attacking without weapons as standing melee attacks.


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hcobb tangent section:

* I don't think gargoyles should be able to use brawling to get +1 (let alone +2) to their 2d claw attack, which clearly is meant as the main lethal attack all gargoyles know. It would be silly to mention that attack as 2d damage if pretty much every gargoyle should really have Brawling and so do 2d+2.

* Yes fine (and magic, Expertise, etc) bonuses can give you a more powerful dagger, but that's off-topic. The point is that ordinary daggers should be more dangerous than fists.

[hcobb]

The Summon Myrmidon spell apparently brings a warrior competent in all weapons, but without Brawling.

ITL 122 gives him a (ST 12) punch of 1d-2 and a HTH attack of 1d-1 and a dagger attack in HTH of 1d+1

Wizard Boardgame rules page 19 gives a punch damage of 1d-3
Melee Boardgame rules page 18 gives a HTH attack of at most 1d-2 while the dagger is 1d+2

ITL bare handed damage is one more point than Melee/Wizard, plus talents, while the dagger is nerfed down a point.

So just use the ITL122 table as the HTH damage while adjacent strikes are one point less.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Skarg

* "Dirty" Brawling giving +2 damage in deadly combat is too good. However it seems to me that there is a RAW cure for this if read/remember the Taking Prisoners section of the rules (ITL p. 126), where it says, in part:



So in a friendly (or I'd say even a "dirty") _brawl_ (as opposed to homicidal unarmed combat), you'd be doing HALF DAMAGE (and wouldn't kill unless you rolled a double or triple damage).

So I don't think the +2 damage would be usable for lethal combat, which is good because it's only 1 (if you don't stack the usual unarmed bonus) or zero (if you do stack it) damage points shy of a dagger in HTH, which I'd hope would be obviously wrong and/or undesirable.

Interesting suggestions. I agree that the rules for subduing make sense in a tavern brawl, say.

The solution of getting rid of the dirty fighting bonus in lethal combat only goes so far. Without it (but with the usual +1 bonus in HTH), a brawler is still within one point of a dagger's damage. I think that, in the end, I'd accept being within one point.

An ST 10 fighter normally does 1d-2 in HTH per RAW.

With brawling, he does 1d-1 HTH if fighting "clean".

With a dagger, he does 1d. Per RAW, he also does that with brawling if he fights dirty.

So, if we just take out the "fighting dirty" option in lethal combat and reserve it for subduing, the brawler averages 2.5 damage per hit while the guy with a dagger does 3.5 on average. That's a pretty big jump. I can live with a brawler getting one point less than a dagger. Equal was just too much to take.

* The line:



is NOT about the word "fighter", which has no rules definition nor significance. The +1 is for any figure in HTH, as opposed to figures attacking without weapons as standing melee attacks.

Yes, I agree.

[Skipper2921]

My interpretation is that both Brawling and Carousing seem to apply to bars and taverns, or situations where PCs are "in an evening of revelry". You have to be in a non-lethal brawl to use the Brawling talent. Somewhere along the line it is determined that the fight is "just a fist fight". In this case nobody goes below strength zero, unless someone uses Dirty Fighting and takes it away from non-lethal (but remains a brawl).

If it is not a brawl, no brawling talent.