Slams through multiple hexes

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by GWJ

I wondering why, it seems like natural consequence of weighing MUCH more than foes...

Traditionally that's also coupled with bigger much larger.

Another way might be to have some form of "SM+ but not actually be SM+", like an Advantage called "Extra Density" or "Super Slammer" or something, which could give the benefit from being a larger SM without actually being that SM.


Or you buy Extra Attacks (Only For Slamming, -??%) (say one Extra Attack per Move, so you can Slam one foe per hex moved), Terrain Adaption (Bodies), and the Ramming Speed Perk together and call the advantage "Juggernaut". Toss in extra HP, the Sumo Skill, and DR to taste.

[McAllister]

1. HP that's only for slams is not nearly worth 2 points. You slam with your max HP regardless of what your current HP is (you don't weigh less after you get shot!), so "Slam only" might be as much as -80% for HP. It's a really, really small subset of what HP does.

2. I would not require extra attacks to slam multiple targets. I like the car into a crowd example: neither the car nor the driver need levels of Extra Attack.

3. Here's my idea for how to rule it:
Keep a running total of the damage that has been rolled against you during slams (regardless of whether or not it was blocked by DR). For each slam after the first, calculate your Move using "total distance moved" minus "total damage rolled against slammer" to model how much of a speed-bump each target is.

Now, if you knock a target down, you step over/on them and keep moving. But what if you don't? The question is whether you shove each target aside and keep moving, or knock them into each other. If you're knocking them into each other, I'd say they start rolling their combined HP total against you: if you slam a big HP11 into a smaller HP8 person, they're rolling against you like they have HP19 when you want to push them both back. Maybe if you roll your slams at -3, you can knock people to the side so you don't have to deal with a growing pile of enemies slowing you down, and there's a Technique to buy off the penalty.

[spacemonkey]

What about an innate attack with aura? Affects anyone you touch or who touches you, no attack required, right? I guess it looks like technically you're still supposed to attack to get the benefit of aura when used offensively, though. Well, might be easier to work out than normal slams, anyways.

[GWJ]

Keep a running total of the damage that has been rolled against you during slams (regardless of whether or not it was blocked by DR). For each slam after the first, calculate your Move using "total distance moved" minus "total damage rolled against slammer" to model how much of a speed-bump each target is.

Hmm and how much dmg will deal someone who just standing still and his move is 0?

[Tomsdad]

I think I'd say that if you've slammed someone who would not have enough ST* to stop you moving if they had grappled you (so in basic half your ST) you can continue on with your move and slam into another target so long as you have enough Mv to get to them.

For added detail you could add the ST (or HP)'s of those who you've previously chained together in this way for seeing if you do the same to the next one.

So to slam into second person after a first you need double the ST/HP of the first. To go on and slam into a third you'd need double the ST/HP of the first & second targets combined. As well as enough Mv to reach all three of course.


To do Juggernaut buy ST (or HP) with a "for slams only" restriction, for this purpose only, this will allow him to:

a). make really powerful slams

and

b). keep on going through his targets.

I think this will help him to smash through walls as well?

Using the basic rules for the threshold it's a bit all or nothing here ie ST20 vs. ST10 yep keep on going, ST20 vs St11, no stop with one slam



*or repalce it with HPs in this case as it's a slam

[chandley]

Originally Posted by GWJ

Hmm and how much dmg will deal someone who just standing still and his move is 0?

Check out Basic p.431: Side-on Collisions and Falls. Stationary objects treat collision velocity as that of the striking object, but the struck object cannot inflict more _dice_ of damage than the striking one.

So, RAW here seems to combine rules from four locations:
Basic p. 368: Moving Through Other Characters.
Here we get a brief line saying "But if the GM rules that the only way past an opponent is through him, you must either bowl him over (see Slam, p. 371) or evade him"
Basic p. 371: The Slam rules. Here we see that if your opponent dodges, you must continue moving if you have the movement points left, and to see "Hitting the wrong target". Additionally, no where does it say you stop moving when you hit with a Slam, unless you are knocked down. Presumably if you want to keep moving, you are back to p.368, but since you already did a Slam, your left with an Evade, which it should be noted grants a +5 to your DX roll if your opponent is lying down, but a -5 if standing up. Slams do crushing damage though, so if you do enough to knock your foe _back_, you wont have to evade, at least until you want to move past his new position!
Basic p. 404: Trampling: Has this critical paragraph: If you knock down a foe in a collision or slam and keep on moving, you automatically overrun and trample your opponent. Do not make any attack or defense rolls - roll damage immediately, based on half your ST, rounded down.
And Basic p.430 goes over generic collisions, which a Slam just sets up. Of note is that you dont have to trample, larger objects get a free "Overrun" as well as a deliberate Trample.

My reading of the RAW suggests this:
Do your slam, roll damage, and apply the results. If you knock your foe _back_, you can continue your movement unimpeded. If you knock your foe _down_, you are at +5 to your DX roll to evade him, if he chooses to try to stop you at all (if he is stunned, he might not be able to!). If you do not knock your foe down or back, you must evade him to continue moving, and you are at -5 to your DX roll because he is still standing. If he knocks YOU down (or back!), you stop moving! You'll have to take turns standing back up before you can move again.
If you are 2 SM or more larger than your opponent, you automatically get an Overrun for extra damage, and if you do Evade your opponent and move over him, you can ALSO trample (which you can do even if you are only 1 SM larger, if you knocked him to the ground). This is automatic, does not require an attack action, attack roll, or allow a defense, as per Trampling.

Edit: For hitting multiple targets, use the Hitting the wrong target rules for your original slam, as it suggests. So if you are a big guy, knock the first person down, and try to enter the hex of the guy behind them, you get a 9 or less to Slam them. If that misses, you have to Evade to keep moving, at -5 since they are still standing.

So, that does suggests a technique that lifts the max of 9 or less on secondary targets, and maybe even buys off penalties to the evade. Require it to be an All-Out (Strong) Slam (which gives full movement points as usual) as the drawback. Risky, since you will be taking slam/collision damage from each guy you hit, but worth it if you are strong, tough, and want to get behind everyone...

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by McAllister

2. I would not require extra attacks to slam multiple targets. I like the car into a crowd example: neither the car nor the driver need levels of Extra Attack

Extra Attack is a 25 points advantage–not cheap. Part of me thinks giving Slam attacks a pass having to take it for extra attacks is unfair. Part of me thinks anybody with an automatic ranged weapon effectively has extra attacks anyway.

Originally Posted by chandley

[Superiour analysis deleted for brevity.]

This seems like the most RAW option to me at the moment.

[VariousRen]

Originally Posted by chandley

Edit: For hitting multiple targets, use the Hitting the wrong target rules for your original slam, as it suggests. So if you are a big guy, knock the first person down, and try to enter the hex of the guy behind them, you get a 9 or less to Slam them. If that misses, you have to Evade to keep moving, at -5 since they are still standing.

Now what happens if I fail to hit the second guy? If I'm in a car that plows through a crowd of cultists, crush the first one and go onto the second one. My roll of 10 means I miss the slam, but it seems very strange that I would suddenly stop. I didn't hit him for damage, but they didn't dodge or grapple the car, but I can't continue past otherwise I would have had to have hit him.

It almost seems like a slam should require a defense, with a failed attack roll making the defense automatic. You can try and parry the car, dodge the car, or block the car, but no matter what you have to deal with the fact that a car is trying to move through your hex and isn't trying to evade you.

Edit: In human scale cases grappling would be a valid defense, which would mean unless they have double your strength they get stopped where they are. The linebacker charges but flubs his slam roll, you step to the side and put an arm around his torso, dragging him to a halt.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by VariousRen

Now what happens if I fail to hit the second guy? If I'm in a car that plows through a crowd of cultists, crush the first one and go onto the second one. My roll of 10 means I miss the slam, but it seems very strange that I would suddenly stop. I didn't hit him for damage, but they didn't dodge or grapple the car, but I can't continue past otherwise I would have had to have hit him.

It almost seems like a slam should require a defense, with a failed attack roll making the defense automatic. You can try and parry the car, dodge the car, or block the car, but no matter what you have to deal with the fact that a car is trying to move through your hex and isn't trying to evade you.

Edit: In human scale cases grappling would be a valid defense, which would mean unless they have double your strength they get stopped where they are. The linebacker charges but flubs his slam roll, you step to the side and put an arm around his torso, dragging him to a halt.

Pyramid 3-77 "Combat Writ Large" addresses this, though it isnt actually RAW technically. Written by Sean Punch though, so it's pretty weighty. Basically, obstacles 3 or more SM smaller than you are count as minor obstructions that cost +1 movement point to bypass... and this includes obstacles that happen to be opponents! You dont have to evade such a tiny foe, just pay movement and keep going. Per Collisions, if they dont get out of the way (with a dodge and drop perhaps) they are automatically overrun and trampled. Which that article makes clear in Incidental Collisions.

And as you say in your edit, in the SM -2 to SM +2 scale vs a SM +0 foe, because you might get grappled, tripped, or shoved on your opponents turn, you have to Evade them to move past, or succeed on your slam. I would go with your houserule that if your ST is twice their HP, they either have to get out of the way or they get slammed automatically (though they still get to defend normally), even though you are not +3 SM, as you can treat them as encumbrance if they hang on.

Edited for a little clarity.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by VariousRen

Now what happens if I fail to hit the second guy? If I'm in a car that plows through a crowd of cultists, crush the first one and go onto the second one. My roll of 10 means I miss the slam, but it seems very strange that I would suddenly stop. I didn't hit him for damage, but they didn't dodge or grapple the car, but I can't continue past otherwise I would have had to have hit him.

As per Basic p404 the car* is Trampling the people.



* Presuming it's 2 or more SM larger than the people.