Historical mideval setting

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

I think the tropes were firmly in place well before D&D. Mail predominated in the Errol Flynn Robin Hood, but see, for example, the kinds of armor worn in movies like 1963's The Sword In The Stone or the 1967 Camelot.

My childhood Saturday afternoon movie matinee watching featured a lot of 1950's medieval fare with knights in full-plate, such as Ivanhoe or The Black Knight. A lot of plate in these other King Arthur movies too.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Portions of the listed territories? or portions of something else?

Yes, there were certainly holdouts against the flow of the french-influenced knights. But even where the knights didn't conquer, they were copied. And no, I don't think only the french were medieval. I'm saying their style of governance was adopted over large portions of what we know call western Europe.

Venice is something of an exception, but then again venice is always something of an exception. And I frankly don't think of Venice when I think of Medieval europe. It was far more integrated with the east than the rest of europe, and yes, I think that matters. If you want to extend interest to the near and middle east during the medieval period that's fine, but its not medieval Europe in the classic sense.

Scotland didn't follow the script either, nor did Switzerland, nor did Eastern Europe and Burghers were an oddity according to the script(integrating them had some interesting results; Cinque Porters were sort of corporately barons for instance).

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

I think the tropes were firmly in place well before D&D. Mail predominated in the Errol Flynn Robin Hood, but see, for example, the kinds of armor worn in movies like 1963's The Sword In The Stone or the 1967 Camelot.

Or even John Lydgate's Troy Book or Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. The heroes of Arthurian tales wore grand-dad's kit until grand-dad did not wear armour and wield a lance any more, and then they wielded what they used in "olden times."

[pestigor]

I'm thinking of after the Roman withdraw from Briton but before the invasion of the Normans. That is if I stick to the British Isles, The discussion of the Holy Roman Empire has me intrigued as well and it looks like I'm doing more "theorycraft" to figure out what I want to do.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by pestigor

I'm thinking of after the Roman withdraw from Briton but before the invasion of the Normans. That is if I stick to the British Isles, The discussion of the Holy Roman Empire has me intrigued as well and it looks like I'm doing more "theorycraft" to figure out what I want to do.

That['s a 500 year stretch but unless you want to deal with Viking invasions (rather than just raids) you'd want to trim another century off the back end of your period.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

"Medieval" to me screams 800-1300 AD; 1500 AD is getting well into the Renaissance era, when things are becoming much more centralized. The Holy Roman Empire was very decentralized; the name is a triple oxymoron, as it was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor really an Empire. It was a confederation of small kingdoms, baronies, counties, duchies, principalities, and city-states with a common overall culture and language (and even then I suspect the languages and dialects varied a lot internally), sharing a figurehead Emperor (which I believe was not entirely hereditary). Plenty of wars of succession between various members, which IMO makes it great for historical adventuring and court intrigues. Just sadly my local public library doesn't have much on it beyond a few Time-Life series books that cover the major points but don't give much more than that because they had to cover everything else in limited space. No books on the HRE as a whole by itself. :(

The HRE endures well into the Baroque. In fact, the 30 Years War is partially the result of the Defenestration of Prague in 1618.

I would think the HRE as a medieval setting has a lot of the same problems as the rest of Europe, since much of the iconic imagery is from later periods. Imperial Landskenecht doppelsoldners with fluted gothic plate and zweihanders aren't medieval.

[hal]

For what it is worth, I dug up my copy of LIONHEART by Columbia Games, and looked at the map that comes with the book. I also looked into the book to see what the year is "local" time for events in the book. The book lists (on the back):

ENGLAND 1190 AD

Living History

Edwin King
It is January 1, 1190, Richard Plantagenet is the mightiest King in Christendom, nobles vie to increase their power, tensions simmer beneath the cover of an alliance with the King of France, and the Third Crusade against the Saracen has begun.

It goes on to state the following:

Lionheart is also a unique historical tool. A history of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales to 1190 is included, but the heart of the text is the encyclopedia of towns, abbeys, castles, personalities, myths, and customs of the late 12th century. Also included is a beautiful colour map of the British Isles in 1190, which locates all places listed in the encyclopedia. Everything, from map to the social and cultural descriptions, are as faithful to the period as possible.

On the map, I can easily enough find Shewsbury, and I can find the river Severn. I can also locate the various towns/cities near Shrewsbury. I'm assuming that the Worminghall has to be somewhere on the Severn - that gives me a range from the Cambrian Mountains past Montgomery nearing Oswestry, coming up on "much Wenlock (not on the Severen mind you, just naming towns/cities near the river by that region).

Not on the river but relatively close by are Clun, Ludlow (on the Teme) Worcester, Dudley, and Kenilworth To mention a few other nearby cities/towns - is there a way to pinpoint more closely where Worminghall is located?

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Scotland didn't follow the script either, nor did Switzerland, nor did Eastern Europe and Burghers were an oddity according to the script(integrating them had some interesting results; Cinque Porters were sort of corporately barons for instance).

Yes, History is complex, and there is generally more exception to it that rule <smile>

I was contrasting the feudal structure with other social structures during what people have called "Medieval", and pointing out it became much more common after a series of Frankish and Frankish influenced conquests.

On the other hand, of all of the places you mention above are not places my mind jumps to when I think 1100 in western europe, with the exception of the Burghers. Eastern Europe in particular really has no place in the discussion, any more than the Byzantines do. You can pay attention to one of these places in a setting, but then you end up writing a book about the swiss, not a general "middle ages" setting.

The Burghers are different, but they also were a system within the system, not a system apart. The Burghers respected the king about as much as the nobles of the time did, and were about as independent as the surrounding nobles. Within the city, they had their own systems, and they always fought differently, but they generally acted like very unusual nobles at the highest levels.

[a humble lich]

As for anachronistic weaponry and armor, that is a tradition going much further back than the Victorians. When the Arthurian romances were written, Arthur was generally wearing armor, clothing, and weapons that were contemporary to the artist instead of late roman era armor. (For example a 16th century statue or a 14th century (?) illustration).

Going back further, classical Greeks would depict the heroes of the Trojan war with classical Greek armor instead of late Bronze Age armor. For that matter combat in the illiad is a miss-mash of classical Greek tactics with a vague memory of Bronze Age tactics.

I want to see what anachronisms future generations will depict in the current era. Will there be pictures of George Washington and Adolph Hitler dogfighting in Jets?

[dcarson]

Originally Posted by a humble lich

I want to see what anachronisms future generations will depict in the current era. Will there be pictures of George Washington and Adolph Hitler dogfighting in Jets?

Like the RPG Diana: Warrior Princess by Marcus L. Rowland