What's with the modesty about stats?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Vynticator

I read someone suggesting Leonardo Da Vinci had IQ around 16, the other day.

IIRC, the writeup of Leonardo in GURPS Who's Who (1 or 2) had IQ 18, and then on top of that the Versatile advantage.

One reason many object to high attributes in GURPS is that the model of Ability = Talent + Training breaks down for high attribute values. It's not a robust model that you can throw anything at and be sure to get reasonable results.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Familiarity penalties can easily be as brutal as -6, making those level 15 defaults into level 9s.

Those familiarity penalties can easily look like GM whim, or even outright GM hostility, from the perspective of a player.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Those familiarity penalties can easily look like GM whim, or even outright GM hostility, from the perspective of a player.

Nevertheless, they are fairly realistic.

Intelligence is not a substitute for experience, though it can let you gain from experience more quickly than otherwise.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by B9anders

I don't think stats of 20 for IQ,DX and HT belong in a realistic campaign. But I do agree with the sentiment that the cult of stat normalization should simply be called the cult of preferring low stats. It is most apparent in Supers where you see arguments that guys like Spider-man should have DX below 20 or Reed Richards IQ in the sub-20 range.

Reed Richards is actually a good (if extreme) fictional example of a character that doesn't fit the IQ 20 model. Yes, in specific areas of hard sciences he's super-brilliant, and he's arguably pretty good at strategy and tactics, based on the overall textual history.

Yet he's periodically short of cash for his projects, even though he knows how to make (textual) butter-pecan (IIRC) ice cream that melts pounds off women (and presumably men, though he made it for Sue when she was trying to dump post-pregnancy pounds).

OK, think about that. He knows how to make butter-pecan ice cream that safely induces easy weight loss. Yet he sometimes has money problems. That implies that his financial acumen, marketing ability, and grasp of human nature are not at the same level as his grasp of astrophysics and chemistry.

More seriouisly, he's also shown over the years a less-than-stellar grasp of such things as practical politics and intelligence/espionage, too.

All in all, Reed looks like a bright guy with a superhuman grasp of the hard sciences, but otherwise with a wide mix of more normal strengths and weaknesses. An IQ 20 Reed ought to be about as good as politics, marketing, and finance as he is at geology and hyperspatial physics.

[DCB]

Originally Posted by Kraydak

Those assumptions (15=expert etc...) cause major problems if one has, say, two parallel systems (in different countries, say), with very different standards. You can easily have two different people who just graduated with multiple years differences in their education, but the 15=expert system would give both the same skill level.

Why? Just say that the better system generates more experts.

There's no rule saying all workers in all jobs have an average skill level of 12, so it's perfectly reasonable (and realistic) to say that some jobs (doctor, pro athlete) will have much higher averages, and others (retail, call centre) will have lower averages.

To my eye, at least, the "14=expert" designations for skill levels are just meant to give an intuitive description, not an iron-clad ruling. There's no reason not to say, for example, "most pure-math professors are experts at Mathematics(Pure)".

Originally Posted by Fwibos

Dr. Kromm did a post on it 8-12 in what you use every day

Again, descriptive not prescriptive.

What a doctor does every day has an enormous amount of training and experience behind it; what someone in a call centre does every day typically has minimal training and relatively short-term experience. Suggesting that they both have skill 12 because "it's what they do every day" is silly.

I strongly suspect Kromm was giving a rough rule of thumb for "average folks", and did not intend for the wide range of human competences to be crammed down into that average.

[Lamech]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

OK, think about that. He knows how to make butter-pecan ice cream that safely induces easy weight loss. Yet he sometimes has money problems. That implies that his financial acumen, marketing ability, and grasp of human nature are not at the same level as his grasp of astrophysics and chemistry.

More seriouisly, he's also shown over the years a less-than-stellar grasp of such things as practical politics and intelligence/espionage, too.

All in all, Reed looks like a bright guy with a superhuman grasp of the hard sciences, but otherwise with a wide mix of more normal strengths and weaknesses. An IQ 20 Reed ought to be about as good as politics, marketing, and finance as he is at geology and hyperspatial physics.

That's an anti-talent, he might have a couple. Also a genre-convention/campaign switch that nerfs gadgeteer. (Fun fact: GURPS gadgeteer helps with financing rolls too!)

Also did you get this poor grasp of politics/espionage from comparing him to other people, the writers not making him do a decent job, or someone (who would know) saying "Richard is bad at politics/espionage"? (Because I have no idea)

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Lamech

That's an anti-talent, he might have a couple. Also a genre-convention/campaign switch that nerfs gadgeteer. (Fun fact: GURPS gadgeteer helps with financing rolls too!)

Also did you get this poor grasp of politics/espionage from comparing him to other people, the writers not making him do a decent job, or someone (who would know) saying "Richard is bad at politics/espionage"? (Because I have no idea)

The particular incident I'm thinking about is when the Skrulls replaced Ben Grimm's girlfriend Alicia with a shapeshifted swallow agent, who later goes to to marry Johnny Storm (as Alicia) when Ben isn't available for the operation to target. This goes on for years on end before her legend is finally blown.

Now, of course this was a retcon to 'fix' having Alicia married to Johnny, but even so, within the context of the continuity, it's a perfectly natural, reasonable thing for the Skrulls to try. They are superb shapeshifters, after all, and they do supposedly have a reputation for sneakiness and complicated long-term gambits.

Just common sense ought to suggest that Reed should have precautions against such a ploy in place. With his science/tech skill, it wouldn't be hard. Yet apparently he never considers the possibility.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Lamech

That's an anti-talent, he might have a couple.

No, it's really just Richards being Archetypical Nerd.

[Lamech]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

The particular incident I'm thinking about is when the Skrulls replaced Ben Grimm's girlfriend Alicia with a shapeshifted swallow agent, who later goes to to marry Johnny Storm (as Alicia) when Ben isn't available for the operation to target. This goes on for years on end before her legend is finally blown.

Now, of course this was a retcon to 'fix' having Alicia married to Johnny, but even so, within the context of the continuity, it's a perfectly natural, reasonable thing for the Skrulls to try. They are superb shapeshifters, after all, and they do supposedly have a reputation for sneakiness and complicated long-term gambits.

Just common sense ought to suggest that Reed should have precautions against such a ploy in place. With his science/tech skill, it wouldn't be hard. Yet apparently he never considers the possibility.

That's not a skill covered by GURPS. That just means he didn't have common sense.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Just common sense ought to suggest that Reed should have precautions against such a ploy in place. With his science/tech skill, it wouldn't be hard. Yet apparently he never considers the possibility.

You need a better example. IQ doesn't give a character good judgement. Particularly since Richards definitely has Single-Minded and Curious.