Melee/Man To Man vs 4th Edition

[thatjimguy]

I have a fondness for the system even back when it was called "Melee". It had a grittiness to it that was unrivaled.

Now 4th Edition is out and I hear that they made it more for "theatrical" combat. Is this the case? Or could I still play it and feel like I was playing "Man to Man" all over again?

[hal]

Originally Posted by thatjimguy

I have a fondness for the system even back when it was called "Melee". It had a grittiness to it that was unrivaled.

Now 4th Edition is out and I hear that they made it more for "theatrical" combat. Is this the case? Or could I still play it and feel like I was playing "Man to Man" all over again?

Depending on what you were looking for as far as MAN-TO-MAN is concerned, the qualified answer is "Yes, it will still leave you feeling like it were cousin to MAN-TO-MAN" There are some minor gripes I have against 4e, and I tend to run a GURPS 3.5 (elements of 3e mixed with mostly 4e stuff) for my gaming group.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by thatjimguy

I have a fondness for the system even back when it was called "Melee". It had a grittiness to it that was unrivaled.

Now 4th Edition is out and I hear that they made it more for "theatrical" combat. Is this the case? Or could I still play it and feel like I was playing "Man to Man" all over again?

I don't know what "theatrical" means in this context, but yes, combat in GURPS 4e has plenty of finicky little tactical options that you can use to get an edge in specific situations. I don't know if you ever played the old BattleTech flip books, but sometimes 4e combat reminds me of that: a duel between you and your opponent where you're each trying to outguess your opponent. Get /Martial Arts/ for extra options and fun.

-Max

[thatjimguy]

Originally Posted by hal

Depending on what you were looking for as far as MAN-TO-MAN is concerned, the qualified answer is "Yes, it will still leave you feeling like it were cousin to MAN-TO-MAN" There are some minor gripes I have against 4e, and I tend to run a GURPS 3.5 (elements of 3e mixed with mostly 4e stuff) for my gaming group.

What I am looking for is just the combat system. We used to run gladiator battle with it.

Also, does the loss of PD change combat all that much? Was the change made for quicker combat and roleplaying purposes?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by thatjimguy

What I am looking for is just the combat system. We used to run gladiator battle with it.

Also, does the loss of PD change combat all that much? Was the change made for quicker combat and roleplaying purposes?

Removal of PD made combat a bit easier. It also removed some murphies.

[thatjimguy]

Do you feel it took anything away? Did it have it's good points? Were the Muphies that extensive, or minor and hardly came up?

[hal]

Originally Posted by thatjimguy

What I am looking for is just the combat system. We used to run gladiator battle with it.

Also, does the loss of PD change combat all that much? Was the change made for quicker combat and roleplaying purposes?

In a word, yes, you can still run your gladiator battles with it, and it will still "Feel" the same for the most part. Be aware however, that there were same changes made (and I must confess, some of the changes were very MUCH for the better - so don't let my grousing turn you away from it <g>) making combat a touch more gripping in the sense that you really have to think about your combat options. I will say without any reservations, that GURPS MARTIAL ARTS For 4e makes combat a real "gem" overall. In one instance, where my players were playing warrior characters in an Atlanean world, they were quickly disabused of the notion that spear fighters were "ho hum". One spear fighter using his spear two handed, had my players exceedingly worried until a chance shot took that NPC down. Ironically, the scene included a balcony with a man holding a handful of javelins as they fought the men in the street at relative darkness. Why Ironically? They were used to fighting under ideal conditions - not in a cobblestone street with some moonlight to fight by, along with garbage strewn in the gutters of the street itself. GURPS 4e handled that scenario just beautifully. Too scared to turn their backs upon the guy in the balcony, too intent on trying to get past their opponents, and as if that weren't enough, only too aware that if their employer went down, they'd be out of a job pronto, and sold back into the Gladitorial pits from whence they came.

So, tense combats, realistic environmental issues, along with tactical options beyond what Man-to-Man originally offered, and I'm certain you will find yourself thinking "Um, yup, GURPS 4e can handle Gladitorial combats alright!"

;)

[The Wrathchild]

Originally Posted by thatjimguy

I have a fondness for the system even back when it was called "Melee". It had a grittiness to it that was unrivaled.

Now 4th Edition is out and I hear that they made it more for "theatrical" combat. Is this the case? Or could I still play it and feel like I was playing "Man to Man" all over again?

Could you elaborate a bit on what made it feel Gritty?

I have experience "only" with 3e and 4e, and they both start out pretty gritty, but especially 4e has options to be added or subtracted that will add to grittyness or take away from it.

If gritty means bleeding, shock, pain, limbs flying off, getting knocked down, having your foot or hand smashed to a pulp, being outfoxed and gutted from behind then - yeah, 4e is pretty gritty.

Then again there are options that will make the combatants seem like kung-fu superheroes - with or without the above. It's mix and match for your favourite flavour.

I'm personally running a PbP that has the Cinematic flashy moves, but also the Brain-caving and dismemeberment, and IMO the two terms are not mutually exclusive. Gritty Cinematic is a good term for the arena/gladiator game we have going.

[hal]

Originally Posted by thatjimguy

Do you feel it took anything away? Did it have it's good points? Were the Muphies that extensive, or minor and hardly came up?

Before you get too worried about Passive Defense being taken out of the mix, GURPS 4e changed the way Defenses are rolled.

Before, it used to be Skill/2 + Armor PD + Shield PD + combat reflex bonus (if any) equalled your chance of defending yourself from an attack.

Now, under GURPS 4e, Shields offer a "Defensive bonus" instead of a passive defense (same intent, just a new name). Rolls to defend are now:

Skill/2 + 3 + Defensive Bonus + Combat Reflexes (if any)

In all, it hasn't really changed all that much from what you remember in that sense. That "constant" +3 bonus pretty much replaced the PD of armor, but everyone gets it. So, as an example:

Warrior with Move 6, Medium Shield w/DB of +2, combat reflexes - no armor what so ever, a skill of 12 with Shield and a skill of 14 with broadsword would have the following defense levels:

Dodge = 5 + 3 + 2 + 1 or 11
Block = 12/2 (or 6) + 3 + 2 + 1 or 12
Parry = 14/2 (or 7) + 3 + 2 + 1 or 13

Now, take away the shield, and the defenses become
Dodge = 9
Block = Not possible
Parry = 11

You still get feints, parries, blocks, dodge, manuevering the normal Man-To-Man way, and a few other combat options that were not present when Man-To-Man was introduced, or even when GURPS made it to its third edition.

[thatjimguy]

Is armor only used for damage reduction anymore then?

COuld someone give me an example or two of a murphy rule for PD?

Also, yes, when I meant gritty, I mean Man to Man boardgame play. Just the combat game itself.

And why only shields giving the "PD" bonus equivalent in 4th?