Comabt questions...

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by robkelk

I just added a tag to the list, and tagged this thread with it. (That service gains a Geas/1, no? <g>)

LOL! You got it! But I have no idea what any Geas from me is worth, if anything, hee hee.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

I don't have LR so I am guessing at this point, but are the rules different if the Celestial is TRAPPED in the vessel, via Song or Relic?

No, it doesn't matter why the Celestial is in the Vessel, just that the Celestial is in the Vessel. (Song, Relic, the Bound Discord, or personal choice - as long as the Celestial is in a Vessel, he's almost completely safe from Celestial damage.)

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

I am wondering why one would trap an enemy in their vessel.

So he can't escape from your interregators or "report in" to his Superior. (It doesn't stop him from trying to Invoke his Superior, but he can't go to Heaven or Hell and see his Superior that way.) I'm sure there are other reasons, but those are the two that come to mind first.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

According to LC it's a Secret Song, not an attunement. But if you say it's also an attunement, I will go with it.

Further, it works only on possessing entities. A Vessel is unaffected;only Kyrios or Shedim can be hit by it (Or those using the Song of Possession, I suppose).

[JCD]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

But I am wondering...

I don't have LR so I am guessing at this point, but are the rules different if the Celestial is TRAPPED in the vessel, via Song or Relic? I am wondering why one would trap an enemy in their vessel.

Think your life would have been much easier if you would have been able to trap Sonia in her vessel that first time. And consider the situation with Blake. Instead of escaping to Hell intact, he would have been in Trauma (not that that helped him, as you found out, but still).

Trauma is helpful to keep folks off your back.

[William]

Originally Posted by DAlillama

Further, it works only on possessing entities. A Vessel is unaffected;only Kyrios or Shedim can be hit by it (Or those using the Song of Possession, I suppose).

I think people are discussing several different things here.

The Corporeal Song of Banishing is a secret Song that will drive celestials out of Vessels or possessing entities (whether by Song or by resonance) out of hosts.

The Celestial Song of Purity mainly damages possessing beings, but can possibly force them out of hosts.

There is no Faith attunement called Purity.

[JCD]

The main misunderstanding is that Lady was under the impression that if yu did enough Corporeal Damage to a Celestial, eventually you would be able to do Celestial damage. This is not the case.

I suppose one analogy you can use is that the Heart has the brain of the Celestial, and the vessel is a remote robot. The Celestial connection is buried deep in the vessel, so it can't be hurt by 'feedback.' A Celestial attack is like licking a nine volt battery; won't hurt a person, can short out a CPU if put in the wrong place. Killing a corporeal vessel shorts out enough circuits that the Heart can't work it anymore. When the vessel is killed, it forces the Heart to reboot, which is Trauma. (Malakim have serious overbuild and hardwiring). Shedim and Kyriotates are just software, not a wired remote. Thus their vulnerability.

Where it breaks down is that is ISN'T a remote robot. The Celestial CAN leave the vessel, for a short time. Only THEN is it vulnerable to Celestial attacks.

The Song of Banishing shorts out or removes the connection to the vessel. The Song of Purity is Anti Virus software.

[ladyarcana55]

Thanks so much everyone! This whole thing is just so confusing for me.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

The main misunderstanding is that Lady was under the impression that if yu did enough Corporeal Damage to a Celestial, eventually you would be able to do Celestial damage. This is not the case.

I suppose one analogy you can use is that the Heart has the brain of the Celestial, and the vessel is a remote robot. The Celestial connection is buried deep in the vessel, so it can't be hurt by 'feedback.' A Celestial attack is like licking a nine volt battery; won't hurt a person, can short out a CPU if put in the wrong place. Killing a corporeal vessel shorts out enough circuits that the Heart can't work it anymore. When the vessel is killed, it forces the Heart to reboot, which is Trauma. (Malakim have serious overbuild and hardwiring). Shedim and Kyriotates are just software, not a wired remote. Thus their vulnerability.

Where it breaks down is that is ISN'T a remote robot. The Celestial CAN leave the vessel, for a short time. Only THEN is it vulnerable to Celestial attacks.

The Song of Banishing shorts out or removes the connection to the vessel. The Song of Purity is Anti Virus software.

Nice analogy! And using that metaphor, I suppose the Song of Charm would be "phishing"; trying to get the other person to do something stupid that makes them vulnerable.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

According to LC it's a Secret Song, not an attunement. But if you say it's also an attunement, I will go with it.

Naw, that's okay. It explains why I couldn't find it--I don't have L. Canticorum. IOW William's right--it's a Song, not an Attunement.

[Acolyte]

Not to confuse matters further, but other than the massively useful Songs of Charm, I've found the Ethereal Song of Entropy to be a big winner in battles. Most typical PCs not serving Beleth or Blandine or ethereals de-emphasize Ethereal Forces and thus have low Mind Hits. This can be a quick way to impose Discord on a celestial, weakening him or her for future confrontations (note: since there is no description in the rules of handling taking Mind hit damage inside a Vessel, I rule that dropping to Mind hits = 0 stuns you for a round of combat and gives you 1 level of Ethereal Discord). Another fast route to this effect is getting Numinous Corpus (Tongue) at a high level, which has the added bonus of being corporeally useful as well.