Another Rulebook Poll

[ShotGun_Jolly]

Originally Posted by dynaman

... (SJGames does the next best thing though, excellent Table of Contents and Index)

Very good point.. and very true!

[CaptainRufus]

Frankly I just want ONE SET OF RULES. Either the Ogre version of how to handle rams and overruns (for example), or GEV. Both just gets confusing and annoying.

Most people end up using GEV's rules in the long run anyhow from my admittedly limited experience.

[sir_pudding]

IMO, the Case System appeals to old school wargamers but will turn off a large section of the mass market. I can't get any of my current friends to play any of my wargames but they'll play the new Avalon Hill games, "german style games" and the like just fine. I suspect the presentation of the rules has something to do with it. Most people see "Rule 5.3.4.1b" and just shut down.

[GEVJockey]

Personally, I like the rules numbering (it's the natural order of things since that's how rules were laid out when I started playing wargames over 30 years ago). So, that's how i voted.

For what it's worth, Ogre Miniatures didn't have rules numbers and I remember wishing that it did.

Did the fact that OM didn't have rules numbers contribute to it getting great reviews and winning awards? If you can generate additional interest by leaving out the rules numbers, go for it and I'll change my vote.

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by GEVJockey

Personally, I like the rules numbering (it's the natural order of things since that's how rules were laid out when I started playing wargames over 30 years ago). So, that's how i voted.

For what it's worth, Ogre Miniatures didn't have rules numbers and I remember wishing that it did.

Ditto, and ditto!

I learned "Gaming" from Avalon Hill and SPI games, so games without numbered rules always look sort of… sloppy and disorganized to me. To whatever extent that case numbering makes it look like a Military Field Manual… uhhh, isn't that a desirable thing? Sure seems like it to me, anyway.

And I don't really understand how someone could be "turned off" a game by the mere presence of those numbers. The organization of the rules would be the same, either way -- the numbers just add a way of making reference to them. If you don't like the numbers, then just ignore them.

Originally Posted by GEVJockey

Did the fact that OM didn't have rules numbers contribute to it getting great reviews and winning awards?

Bingo! Excellent example.

Bottom Line: The lack of case numbering would not magically pull in hordes of previously undiscovered fans, any more than the presence of case numbering would drive anybody off.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by FireHorse

Bottom Line: The lack of case numbering would not magically pull in hordes of previously undiscovered fans, any more than the presence of case numbering would drive anybody off.

That's your opinion. I did not grow up playing games with case numbering, and it definitely WOULD turn me off of playing the game if the rules looked like a bad high-school English outline.

I say yet again, if the new version of OGRE is designed to appeal to 20-year veterans of OGRE games, it will fail. There aren't enough of you left to support a relaunch, especially an expensive relaunch with flashy components. It HAS to bring in new blood to be worth doing.

[smgray1]

The key consideration here clearly is what SHOULD the end product be to have the best chance to gain traction in the market.

As an old timer from Metagaming days, I am not as concerned about case numbering or wording for structure of the rule set as much as I am about the disparate sources of rules being consolidated into one unified publication.

While it is one consideration, I don't know if case numbering is as valid a marketing metric as a quality end product being fully supported with a comprehensive push from SJG would be. It merely makes the job a little less time consuming to accomplish. It should not be as much about timing as quality.

This iteration MUST in my opinion not fail to be an easy to understand, high quality, consolidated and comprehensive reissue of all rules in one book/PDF.

My 2c

[pigasuspig]

About that "target market":
1) SJ doesn't post rules online for free.
2) People who already know about Ogre likely don't mind numbering.

So, anyone who theoretically would be put off by numbering would have to have x-ray vision for it to affect their purchasing decisions.

I say go with numbering, it forces your rules to make at least some modicum of sense, and helps with references.

I strongly favor a basic-rules/advanced-rules approach for two reasons:
1) They are distinct rulesets, and should be kept that way
2) Taking this approach gives you a natural way to highlight the changes (Thus GEV Advanced Rules would be two natural sections: Changes and New Stuff). Isolating the changes would help smooth friction between the rulesets.

This is a bit of a change, but I think the system should move over to points universally, as opposed to armor units (and half-armor-units).

[Dragon505]

I would like to see combined rules. I don't care wether there is a numbering system to them or not. SJG should use the format most likely to bring in sales. That is what would do the game the most good and in turn the loyal fans of this great game system.


Respectfully,
Dragon505

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

That's your opinion. I did not grow up playing games with case numbering, and it definitely WOULD turn me off of playing the game if the rules looked like a bad high-school English outline.

Does case numbering equate to a bad outline?

I thought case numbering was just clear rules, something like on this part of the turn you can do x,y,z type of thing, no?

I'd guess that many of the target audience for games these days have been playing lots of games like Magic, Pokemon and such, so clear rules which say on this part of the turn you can do x,y,z on the next part of the turn you can do s,t,u would be a good thing...