Experience Points

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by luguvalium

I'm currently reading through Tollenkar's Lair and realized that the biggest villians will need to be redone due to the new limitation on attributes. Tollenkar, for example, is a 60 point character with ST 18, DX 17, IQ 25

In thinking about how he would be modified, his IQ can come down to 20, since there are no listed spells above 20, his ST can come down a lot, but it makes sense to keep a higher DX to cast spells well, so to meet the 40 point limit (assuming he has no attribute modifying magic items), his stats could become ST 8, DX 12 and IQ 20.

This implies that a wizard like Tollenkar would need to spent most of his life weak and only slightly higher than average at casting, which doesn't make sense. Potential solutions:
1] Raise the limit
2] Let there be a wizard only talent, much like missile weapons, that gives a +3DX to casting without needing to raise DX
3] Allow attribute point to be transferred from one attribute to another at a particular EP cost. So a wizard could be stronger and swifter in their youth, but gradually become craftier as their physically attributes weaken ( and they can rely to more magic items )

My thinking is:

0) Tollenkar doesn't need to be ST 18, especially if the current SJ staff system is in play. At ST 8, he would only have to have Staff mana at 10 (still unclear to me whether that is level 10 or level 5 with Staff of Power). I imagine he would probably be IQ 20 with staff mana at 40, which is vastly more powerful than having ST 18, especially as the PCs are liable to be encountering him with a relatively full staff mana.

1) Yes, I think that for games that want super-ish characters, the 40-point limit could be raised or even just replaced by ever-increasing EP costs, so there would be very few people above 40 natural points, but not zero.

2) I think that yes there should be several talents which increase effective DX for various tasks other than the existing ones (thrown and ranged weapons), e.g. weapons, reducing armor DX penalties, and spells (which I might break down either by spell or by type of spell). Great wizards are a great example, it seems to me: they should able to be great at casting spells (at least the ones they specialize in), without being particularly fast/agile at everything. (Tollenkar was better than all of our most experienced TFT PCs even in ST & DX. It makes sense he'd be so powerful with spells (though Strength Batteries cover that ok) and spellcasting, but not so much muscle and physical agility.)

3) Mhmm, well the aging rules should probably reduce ST & DX a bit sooner. I'm not sure what would work well for everyone about transferring attributes.

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

If there was a Expert Caster talent that gave a wizard +3 DX for spell casting, EVERY wizard would want it. I wrote in a previous post a suggestion that we phase out talents that boost DX. So I strongly would recommend against this.

What if there were three expensive talents that increased casting DX by +1 each? (Then every wizard would WANT them, and would start tend to take them at about the point where they were cost-effective versus high DX, which could be carefully chosen so that you have a choice in whether you concentrate on spellcasting or spend a few more EP to get full DX, too.)

Alternatively, there could be similar gradual talents that reduce the effective range of Thrown Spells, another for Missile Spells.

And/or, as someone else suggested a while ago, you could put extra EP into spells to learn them with a bonus to cast.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Skarg

...
3) Mhmm, well the aging rules should probably reduce ST & DX a bit sooner. I'm not sure what would work well for everyone about transferring attributes.


What if there were three expensive talents that increased casting DX by +1 each? (Then every wizard would WANT them, and would start tend to take them at about the point where they were cost-effective versus high DX, which could be carefully chosen so that you have a choice in whether you concentrate on spellcasting or spend a few more EP to get full DX, too.)

Alternatively, there could be similar gradual talents that reduce the effective range of Thrown Spells, another for Missile Spells.

And/or, as someone else suggested a while ago, you could put extra EP into spells to learn them with a bonus to cast.

Hi Skarg, everyone.
Re: Transferring Attributes. I think that this should be very expensive, say lose an attribute for no experience point refund, and then buy a new attribute at full cost. My reasoning is that for the most part people don't say, I'm going to trade off my DX for IQ; it seems gamey. Now, if you LOSE ST because of age, illness, etc. you could later improve IQ.

The purpose of the 40 attribute limit is to make it virtually impossible to have attribute bloat. If we add a tonne of talents that give bonuses to attributes, (especially now the there is no memory IQ cost to learning talents), you are making attribute bloat possible again.

A talent that lowers the range DX penalty for thrown spells etc. bothers me less. For example: You have a talent that lowers the range of thrown spells by 2. You have a DX 10 Wizard. Well, yes he can cast thrown spells successfully, a bit further away, but his DX still sucks. He will miss half of those spells. The talent needs to be paired with at least a decent DX. He still really wants to raise his DX, which will hurt ST and IQ, which leads to hard (and interesting) choices.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Skarg]

Hi Rick,

Ya I mostly agree with you on those points... which is why I like other kinds of effects over + modifiers if possible (e.g. reduction of penalties instead).

Looking at the high-end, IQ 20 has Word of Command and Possession, which I kind of like seeing requiring a wizard with only 20 in ST + DX. Possession will want apprentices with Aid spells and/or Strength Batteries to cast (as it did before), and Word of Command will tend to be cast at DX 12 or less unless Aided.

At IQ 19, max natural DX is 13, which impacts Revival and especially Long-Distance Teleport (which kills you if you miss a roll!). Again, people will probably want someone to Aid them to pull these off (which they sort of already did before due to the ST costs, but now they'll likely want Aid to DX as well).

At IQ 18, Wizard's Wrath is a bit less terrifying knowing the wizard's natural ST + DX would be 22 or less (especially if staffs only restore your used ST, not add to total spellcasting energy).

[Wayne]

Of course, there won't be a SJG cop watching to see if you abide by the 40 point limit!

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

40pt Gandalf? HA! Galdalf was a demi-god. Where Saruman was chosen to be one of the Istari by Manwe, Gandalf was sent by Aule.

I agree that we will have to wait and see the final rules before we worry about how to break them.

Gah! I can't believe I'm going to rise to the oldest bait in fantasy roleplaying game nerd-dom, but here goes:

Gandalf: ST 12, DX 11, IQ 17, and a couple dozen appropriate spells can do everything he accomplishes in the books (and then some). His 'meta' back story about being an angel or whatever doesn't have to be expressed in his stats. It certainly doesn't come through as a transcendent power in the story (except perhaps trying to understand how he whuped the Balrog off stage...).

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by Wayne

Of course, there won't be a SJG cop watching to see if you abide by the 40 point limit!

Exactly. I'd rather play a game where each group an choose to break it however they want but the 'official' version is restrained.

[pyratejohn]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Exactly. I'd rather play a game where each group an choose to break it however they want but the 'official' version is restrained.

I feel exactly the same way. And I believe that is part of the charm of TFT, its malleability. I hope the new edition doesn't change much, but I'm more than happy to change it to suit my tastes.

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Gah! I can't believe I'm going to rise to the oldest bait in fantasy roleplaying game nerd-dom, but here goes:

Gandalf: ST 12, DX 11, IQ 17, and a couple dozen appropriate spells can do everything he accomplishes in the books (and then some). His 'meta' back story about being an angel or whatever doesn't have to be expressed in his stats. It certainly doesn't come through as a transcendent power in the story (except perhaps trying to understand how he whuped the Balrog off stage...).

Gandalf was equal in power, if not a bit more powerful than Suaron without his ring (because they were both Maiar, lesser gods). But, story wise, was not allowed to show his full power. I hate it when people try to use Gods as examples of characetrs you can make, it's just silly. Especially if you have just a passing familiarity with the mythos.

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by Skarg

My thinking is:
What if there were three expensive talents that increased casting DX by +1 each? (Then every wizard would WANT them, and would start tend to take them at about the point where they were cost-effective versus high DX, which could be carefully chosen so that you have a choice in whether you concentrate on spellcasting or spend a few more EP to get full DX, too.)

Or when they reached the point where they didn't want to increase DX since they were saving their remaqining points for IQ, even if buying the DX would be significantly less expensive.

Mind you, starting with an 8 ST would be very hard for a spell caster, since he would have no mana stat built up. You would be a very weak wizard for quite a while. And even with a large selection of spells because of your larger IQ, you wouldn't have the staying power of any 'hero'.

https://www.resonant.org/mirror/musi...rst_to_die.mp3

On that same note, saying that Tollenkar could get away with an 8 ST and 20 IQ is equally ludicrouse, since having 8 ST at the beginning would have meant a very long time of building up his Mana stat to be more than a nuisance.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

Gandalf was equal in power, if not a bit more powerful than Suaron without his ring (because they were both Maiar, lesser gods).

Maiar were not all equal in power.