WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

[Parody]

Originally Posted by Scurv

Not having access to my books at the moment I recall they had rules for cycles in 5e. Did they shake things up with them or was it more of the same?

There's no way to tell as they never released a cycle in CW5. The book on Cycles and Trikes was scheduled after the Vehicle Design book.

[kjamma4]

Originally Posted by Parody

There's no way to tell as they never released a cycle in CW5. The book on Cycles and Trikes was scheduled after the Vehicle Design book.

When does the Vehicle Design book come out?

:) and :(

[GnomesofZurich]

Originally Posted by kjamma4

When does the Vehicle Design book come out?

:) and :(

Considering SJGames Car Wars page hasn't been updated since 2003, I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Scurv

The case of Cycles being less maneuverable than cars just never added up to me. Have a look at those high speed chase shows the yanks crank out and watch a nutter on a bike leave the cops behind time and time again. Trikes on the other hand do have stability and handeling issues.

The bikes don't handle better -- they're faster, and smaller, so they can fit
through holes a Dodge Charger or Ford Crown Victoria can't. Watch those
same videos and see what happens the first time Mr. Biker-Refugee screws
up a maneuver (assuming the result can be shown on "family-friendly" TV;
hospital workers have many unkind names for motorcycles -- There Is A
Reason For This).

Originally Posted by Scurv

That side armour should come at the cost of Trikes tipping over more often.

Like those things don't have enough problems? I've never seen a trike win a
duel which wasn't a trikes-only event.

Originally Posted by Scurv

Not having access to my books at the moment I recall they had rules for cycles in 5e. Did they shake things up with them or was it more of the same?

No Bikes in 5th edition.

Originally Posted by Scurv

Anyways the best 'bike gangs' had subcompacts and a pickup or 2 for transporting the loot.

The best "bike gang" I ever ran over^H^H^H^Hacross used naught *but*
pickups with OR gear. Still wasn't good enough to beat a helicopter packing
a brace of CBs.... >:)

[sazzlefrats]

I just wanted to mention that... after a prolonged discussion at my computer company and we geeked out on the subject. That assuming you have a decent bike, it will out handle a car. I debated the subject until they showed the me calculations and physics. So no matter what I do to my mustang, a bike will outhandle me.


I noticed in the blue car wars compendium that all the cycles have HC3, is that like a typo or something?

[Parody]

Most of those cycles should be HC 2.

In general, you should double-check the design of any of the preprinted vehicles before using them.

[Racer]

Resurrected but relevant :

Got a Gmail from Swordboy's eldest , who I'll call 'McCloud' , on his Summer break from 1st year at University .
He & his Science studying friends have spent a LOT of time playing Car Wars - McCloud grew up in a house where it was played at least monthly - & drew some observations on Cycles & suggested many solutions to 'The CW Cycle Problem' .

1 ) Weight : Far too heavy & probably based on Harley's from 1970's or just plucked out of thin air ! Solution : Light Cycle 190lbs , Med Cycle 220lbs , Hvy Cycles 250lbs . I'd add Sidecars to that : Lt Sidecar 100lbs , Heavy Sidecar 200lbs . ( Should really add Mini-Van Trailers 250lbs down from 400lbs )

2 ) Spaces : Cycles were introduced 5+ years before Component Armour was available - so Light Cycles can't benefit from using it AND a useful weapon . Solution : Lt Cycles have 5 Spaces & Med Cycles 6 . ( I'd add a basic Motor Scooter to the Cycle types - $100 , 100lbs , Max Load 600lbs , 4 Spaces & Armour $7/3lbs per point . Limited to 70-80mph when using it's own Mini PP or normal Top Speeds if using a Small PP .

3 ) Max Load for Lt Cycles : Bring into line with larger Cycles . Max Weight now 900lbs

4 ) Armour Cost & Weight : Solution Lt Cycle Armour $9/4lbs per point , Med Cycle Armour $10/4lbs per point , Hvy Cycle Armour $11/5lbs per point . Sidecar Armour weight should drop to 3lbs & 4lbs per point respectively & be $4 & $5 per point .

4 ) Some Accessories etc should be half the weight of those on larger Vehicles ? Example a Cycle Spoiler should Weight 5x that of a point of Armour & Cost 12.5x as much . Others that could be looked at : Active Suspension , HD Shocks , Fake Cycle Wheel guards & Hubs ( ½lb in Weight ? Especially as two Hubs MUST be mounted ? ) , Concealment ? , Bushcutter , Autopilot , possibly Rocket Boosters/Jump Jets ? , etc etc .

5 ) More Cycle Accessories : Cycle Fire Extinguisher - 25lbs ½ Space 10 uses - , Front mounted Anti Ped Spike/Spear ¼ Inch long Game Scale , Solid State Gyro to help cornering , Scatterpacks externally mounted Back loaded with 4-5 Spike or 2 Mine Counters or even a one shot Flamethrower , mounts for Pedestrian Weapons ? , etc etc .

Email is quite extensive , so these are just some of the suggestions - they did a lot of play testing & juggling with the numbers . I doubt these will make huge differences to gameplay , it just means Cycles ( especially Lt & Medium ones ) are once again viable Combat Machines . I mean come on is any reasonable Player going to object if a Light Cycle now carries 75% more Armour ... going up from 20pts total to 35pts ? They'll still die pretty quickly versus a competent Car Driver ?

They've not started on Subcompacts yet , but will email me their ideas soonish .

What do other think on these numbers & suggestions ?

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by Racer

Resurrected but relevant :

Got a Gmail from Swordboy's eldest , who I'll call 'McCloud' , on his Summer break from 1st year at University .
He & his Science studying friends have spent a LOT of time playing Car Wars - McCloud grew up in a house where it was played at least monthly - & drew some observations on Cycles & suggested many solutions to 'The CW Cycle Problem' .

1 ) Weight : Far too heavy & probably based on Harley's from 1970's or just plucked out of thin air ! Solution : Light Cycle 190lbs , Med Cycle 220lbs , Hvy Cycles 250lbs . I'd add Sidecars to that : Lt Sidecar 100lbs , Heavy Sidecar 200lbs . ( Should really add Mini-Van Trailers 250lbs down from 400lbs )

2 ) Spaces : Cycles were introduced 5+ years before Component Armour was available - so Light Cycles can benefit from using it AND a useful weapon . Solution : Lt Cycles have 5 Spaces & Med Cycles 6 . ( I'd add a basic Motor Scooter to the Cycle types - $100 , 100lbs , Max Load 600lbs , 4 Spaces & Armour $7/3lbs per point . Limited to 70-80mph when using it's own Mini PP or normal Top Speeds if using a Small PP .

3 ) Max Load for Lt Cycles : Bring into line with larger Cycles . Max Weight now 900lbs

4 ) Armour Cost & Weight : Solution Lt Cycle Armour $9/4lbs per point , Med Cycle Armour $10/4lbs per point , Hvy Cycle Armour $11/5lbs per point . Sidecar Armour weight should drop to 3lbs & 4lbs per point respectively & be $4 & $5 per point .

4 ) Some Accessories etc should be half the weight of those on larger Vehicles ? Example a Cycle Spoiler should Weight 5x that of a point of Armour & Cost 12.5x as much . Others that could be looked at : Active Suspension , HD Shocks , Fake Cycle Wheel guards & Hubs ( ½lb in Weight ? Especially as two Hubs MUST be mounted ? ) , Concealment , Bushcutter , Autopilot , possibly Rocket Boosters/Jump Jets ? , etc etc .

5 ) More Cycle Accessories : Cycle Fire Extinguisher - 25lbs ½ Space 10 uses - , Front mounted Anti Ped Spike/Spear ¼ Inch long Game Scale , Solid State Gyro to help cornering , Scatterpacks externally mounted Back loaded with 4-5 Spike or 2 Mine Counters or even a one shot Flamethrower , mounts for Pedestrian Weapons ? , etc etc .

Email is quite extensive , so these are just some of the suggestions - they did a lot of play testing & juggling with the numbers . I doubt these will make huge differences to gameplay , it just means Cycles ( especially Lt & Medium ones ) are once again viable Combat Machines . I mean come on is any reasonable Player going to object if a Light Cycle now carries 75% more Armour ... going up from 20pts total to 35pts ? They'll still die pretty quickly versus a competent Car Driver ?

They not started on Subcompacts yet , but will email me their ideas soonish .

What do other think on these numbers & suggestions ?

Lots of stuff there... let's see...

1. Cycle weights. Remember that cycles (and sidecars!) can use carbon aluminum frames too. That actually puts them lighter than the stats being proposed. Real-world modern cycles are probably closer to one with a CA frame than the standard stats. The CA frame is also a reason not to tweak the weights downward - adding it will make them even lighter.
2. Spaces. I don't see this as much of an issue really. Remember that cycles, even light ones, can bring along a passenger who can use his hand weapons at minimal penalty for no additional space. Leaves enough room for the component armor. An armored cycle windshell is also an option too (at no space) for light cycles wanting some protection and a weapon.
3. Look at a CA frame on a cycle. it should give enough weight to up the armor.
4. Some do. HD Shocks, for example, are bought per wheel. If someone is mounting hubs and guards on a cycle, they need their head examined. Ditto for someone shooting at them (just shoot the cycle itself). A cycle wheelguard is plenty of protection. Rocket boosters and jump jets work based on the weight... cycles should work just like everyone else.
5. Some of these exist... portable fire extinguisher? There was a spear (might've been a lance actually) in the Chassis & Crossbow section of Dueltrack.

It almost sounds like a gift of UACFH might give them a new perspective.

Here's a quick light cycle I whipped up using a CA frame:

Unnamed Design -- Light Cycle w/CA Frame, Heavy suspension, Small Cycle power plant, 2 Motorcycle Puncture-Resistant tires, Cycle Windshell w/10 pts extra Plastic armor, Cyclist w/SWC and BA, Micromissile Launcher Front, Plastic Armor: F18, B12, 2 5-pt Cycle Wheelguards, Acceleration 10, Top Speed 130, HC 2 (3 @60mph), 800 lbs., $6000

Not great, but not too horrible for only 6k. It's a light cycle, after all.

[Parody]

Originally Posted by Racer

Far too heavy & probably based on Harley's from 1970's or just plucked out of thin air!

They do know the game was released in 1981, right?

(Also that most of the numbers involved have not changed over the lifetime of the game.)

[Racer]

Yes of course I do Parody - I was around then . Just that the weight & bulk of machines even then don't reflect those on the Road then - at least in the UK ?

Trouble is Trikes are so much better - even without a CA Frame or Heavy/X-Hvy Chassis ? Just did this on Combat Garage :

Unnamed Trike ; Light Trike , Light Chassis , Heavy Suspension , Medium PP w/HTMs & 10pts CA, 3 Motorcycle SBHD Tires , Driver w/PFE & 10pts CA , LMG Left w/14 Shots & 10pts CA , Sloped Plastic Armour ; F18 , L18 , R12 , B16 , T10 , U8 , 3pt CWG Front , 2-2pt WGs B , 2 Fake Hubs B , Gear Allocation 101lbs @ 105mph , Acceleration 5 +5 w/HTNs , Top Speed 110 Mph , HC 2 , 1,339lbs, $4,997 ...

Superior in every way bar Top Speed & 'normal' Acceleration .

With mine & McCloud's suggestions , a Light Cycle with a CA Frame would weight 95lbs & that's getting close to actual weight of modern Motorcycles ?

Couple of years ago I lifted an Off Road Trials Motorcycle onto a rack just above my head height : I'd judge it was between 110 & 140lbs with a dry tank ? I'm no Captain American , but even with my 300lbs+ 6 Foot build , I lifted it easily .
Only had to move a Harley Davidson once about 15 years ago . It had been knocked on it's side & was leaking Petrol/Gas on the pavement . I struggled to get it upright ( wasn't as large or strong then ), but did it - estimate the weight was 450-550lbs+ .
It was a huge beast if a machine, but I doubt the frame itself weighed much more than 150lbs & certainly not 200lbs . And yet Car Wars Hvy Cycles with CA Frames weight 175lbs ...
I understand that the heaviest produced Harley's weight in around 952lbs - half way between a Light & Medium Car Wars Cycles max loads !
Very unrealistic & as we stated in serious need of Rules adjustments .

Cycle Fire Extinguisher is a small VEHICULAR Fire Extinguisher based on those for real life Motorcycles - tanks of the same design are also used for Nitrous Oxide on Cycles & Go-Carts !

Although I don't ride them , I've been around Motorbikes all my life as my Uncle has always owned at least one ( sometimes three ... ) & would like to efficiently play using those cool machines I remember from my Childhood :-D

[EDIT] Quick search on web shows that the basic Frame for a Harley Soft Tail weighs in at 65.56lbs - even with a seat , lights , forks , wheel forks , shocks etc I doubt it would reach 200lbs - let alone 250 , 300 or 350lbs ...