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Old 11-27-2009, 03:52 PM   #11
tantric
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

I'm a gay man. My intro to oWoD vampire was a group of all gay male players and one "fruit fly". I was asked to choose my character portrait from a pack of Chippendale's playing cards. The fact that I had no interest in living out some sexual fantasy utterly failed to compute with the other players. I played two sessions and dropped out. It was ICKY. If I want to be sexy, I'll be a half-orc with pecs, scars and a serious manly smell, not a tick with delusions of grandeur.

By the weird double standard of political correctness, as I understand it, I, as an actual homosexual, can call a thing "gay" and not be homophobic. So, officially, I'm calling it. Vampire is gay :-P

Last edited by tantric; 11-27-2009 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 11-27-2009, 04:05 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

I know a lot of V:tM Players, all of them are Bashing against V:tR.
I also know a lot of D&D Gamers (also playing V:tM), all of them are Bashing against D&D 4.0.

Both Systems did the same Mistake:
AD&D to D20's Power where the Character Classes, and Presige Classes, they fit perfectly for Munchkinism Dungeon Crawling RPGs. WoC killed them in D&D4 and so it sucks big time for old Hardcore Gamers.

The unique Sellingpoint in WoD was "Background" and "Ambient" - It is a "Story Telling RPG" and you know what this means if you read the old WW Books. i loved the Hunter Corebook, and the Malkav Clanbook was outstandig.
Everybody in the WW Building would be a very rich man if they just kicked out their "crappy RPG system" and replaced it with something that works.

Instead they twaked the Rules from horrible to ugly and killed the biggest WoD Feature. They changed and shortend the Backgroundstory! I really understand why People are upset against Whitewolf.

If Steve Jackson stops selling and shipping GURPS 4th Edition Books just to enforce that everybody has to buy his new NURBS (No more Universal RPS) we would be ****** to, right?
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Old 11-27-2009, 05:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

I don't really find the V:tM system that offensive. A bit bland, yeah, but it does market itself as storytelling over system. And the people I know to play it are gothgirls (actual or 'weekend goths') and fairly common people, divided 50/50. I played a scenario which had one gay guy. He was openly gay, but I didn't notice it until someone said it.

I think bashing is here to stay, and it is more about "I wish to bash, what system should I bash?" than "this system is flawed, it needs bashing". It's a mentality, most of the time, not an actual comment. Stating opinion is another matter, of course; the line between opinion and bashing is fickle.
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Old 11-27-2009, 05:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

I actually have very good memories of playing World of Darkness games. Over the years I've played and GM'd some really cool World of Darkness games. The system itself functions well and the game with a good GM creates a mood and feel that I've always enjoyed.

The flaws I found is:
1. The different games don't mesh well (Vampire, Changling, Werewolf)
2. The powers are not balanced even though they cost the same.
3. The scale moves up too quickly at the high levels.

I of course can't speak to other people's experience but the fact that someone played with a particular group and didn't have fun so the system sucks seems unfair to the system.
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Old 11-27-2009, 06:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

Actually, xeniac, most of the oWoD players I know were happy when the old metaplot from V:tM was discarded - everything that ever happened was part of some ancient evil conspiracy, nothing the PCs did could ever affect anything because all the real rulers had been running things for over a thousand years and knew all the tricks, and it was all going to come to a major deus ex machina head in a few years, a decade and a half at most, when all the unstoppable supervampiric Antediluvians awoke from torpor and destroyed the world...

In the new version, V:tR, the eldest vampires keep confusing what happened to them 500 years ago with what they dreamed in torpor 75 years ago, and everyone treats them like that old uncle who rants about the elves stealing his underwear but might leave everyone millions of dollars in his will someday. There are a lot of aspects of life the older Kindred control; but there are a lot of things humans did on their own, sometimes despite vampiric plotting, and there are enough niches that a young bloodsucker that keeps his wits about him might still aspire to master his own destiny, and perhaps even those of others. The origins of the Kindred are shrouded in mystery and superstition still, but none of the founders of the Clans are still around, and no one seems to have a vested interest in keeping those origins secret.

Young Kindred are still cautioned to avoid werewolves and mages - but the old concept that each group must automatically hate, fear, and revile the others has been apparently rejected (which only makes sense - given how easily the Garou could take apart the Kindred in oWoD, one wonders how any of the vampires ever survived long enough to become Elders...).

And the new version doesn't see everything coming to a premature end in a matter of 15-20 years, either.
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Old 11-27-2009, 06:36 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

I've never played the nWoD. But I really enjoyed the games I played in oWoD 2e. I was majorly irritated by the plot progression of 2eRev and stopped playing around then.

I don't have time to read a new gaming book at the moment, but I will certainly pick up the new rules books sooner or later.

I had been playing dramatic heavy games before Vampire (Call of Cthulhu)...but after Vampire, it was much easier to find players who were interested in drama, politics, and social gaming. And there were way more female gamers post-Vampire than there were pre-Vampire.

I think overall, WoD was a great, great shot in the arm for our hobby. Aside from a few irritating rules glitches, I have no complaints and lots of affection for WoD...for full disclosure, I'd never played any of the other WoD games, only Vampire.
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Old 11-27-2009, 07:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
I don't have time to read a new gaming book at the moment, but I will certainly pick up the new rules books sooner or later.
I have bought both the new Mage and Promethean, and found both of them disappointing, to such an extent that I've given up buying WW. (I like Exalted better, but I've never been able to talk my players into a campaign!)

Mage, in particular, took the wide-open cosmology, and the reality-is-subjective metaphysics that supported it, and the superhuman powers that it enabled, and shut them all down, in favor of a narrow focus on Western occultism. Booooooring! If I wanted that sort of game I already had both Nephilim and GURPS Cabal at hand. And the conflict in the new game meant nothing to me, whereas Traditions versus Technocracy was cool.

Quote:
I had been playing dramatic heavy games before Vampire (Call of Cthulhu)...but after Vampire, it was much easier to find players who were interested in drama, politics, and social gaming. And there were way more female gamers post-Vampire than there were pre-Vampire.

I think overall, WoD was a great, great shot in the arm for our hobby. Aside from a few irritating rules glitches, I have no complaints and lots of affection for WoD...for full disclosure, I'd never played any of the other WoD games, only Vampire.
I've played Changeling and run Mage, and had fun with both. But I wasn't in the WW live action circle for either. My circle has lots of women because I socialize with lots of women, and I don't hesitate to invite them into campaigns. It's been years since I've been in an all-male group.

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Old 11-27-2009, 07:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

I imagine that at least a certain of the bashing is coming from guys like me. My V:tM playing days were mostly in high school (with the drama department, no less) and shortly after. I enjoyed it at the time, wallowed in the angst a bit, carried it farther than it probably needed to go (nothing illegal or harmful - just enthusiastic).

Looking back on it all, I feel a bit silly and like I ought to distance myself from that state of mind. So, at least in my case, there's some good-natured, self-conscious ribbing (to a certain extent directed at my younger self, too) that could look like bashing.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
But the mechanics! Every single experiment with these games has led to the gaming group in question abandoning the game in frustration due to arcane, inconsistent and annoying game mechanics that modelled neither the stated genre nor reality with any accuracy.

For me, WoD/WW stands as an example of a large publisher with editing, playtesting and designing standards so low as to make their games unplayable. That failure, in my books.
I agree with you 100%.
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is WoD the new D&D for bashing purposes?

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Yeah, I've always been disturbed the trend of many WoD bashers to move really quickly to sexist and homophobic attacks against the game.

Hmmph. And all this time I thought it came from WWGS refusal to give a consistent origin for Rasputin! ;)
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