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Old 02-01-2020, 09:19 AM   #1
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

As everyone is aware, GURPS defenses are exceptionally expensive, but I have found that there are a number of creative methods one can use to make characters more resilient. One of my favorite examples is limited Insubstantiality. For example, imagine a male super with the following ability:

Insubstantiality (Limited, Piercing Metal Only, -60%) [32]

The character, though none of his possessions, are immune to damage from piercing metal (if shot, his clothing will suffer damage, but he will not, as the shot will pierce cloth long before the cloth can translate damage to the character). While no one can use the character for defensive cover, bullets do not bounce off him, he is capable of walking through a firefight without any concern. He is no more immune to any other damage though (he would only need Affects Substantial though if he wanted to wield piercing metal).

What other tricks do you use or allow in your games? Are there any tricks that you have banned? Are there any that you like to use for your PCs or NPCs?
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Old 02-01-2020, 11:19 AM   #2
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
As everyone is aware, GURPS defenses are exceptionally expensive, but I have found that there are a number of creative methods one can use to make characters more resilient. One of my favorite examples is limited Insubstantiality. For example, imagine a male super with the following ability:

Insubstantiality (Limited, Piercing Metal Only, -60%) [32]

The character, though none of his possessions, are immune to damage from piercing metal (if shot, his clothing will suffer damage, but he will not, as the shot will pierce cloth long before the cloth can translate damage to the character). While no one can use the character for defensive cover, bullets do not bounce off him, he is capable of walking through a firefight without any concern. He is no more immune to any other damage though (he would only need Affects Substantial though if he wanted to wield piercing metal).
There is no way I would ever allow that one. I would be fine with Insubstantiality with respect to a substance, such as water or metal or diamond, given a plausible rationale (though I find it hard to think of one that I'd find plausible enough for a hard sf campaign). But I don't see that there is any plausible rationale for being insubstantial with respect to a particular shape, which is what "piercing" seems to amount to. Nor does it gain plausibility if you're adding the shape limitation onto a substance limitation. And I don't see recall any such limitation in the published material, except as a specialized limitation on Damage Resistance, which there is no indication is generalizable to other advantages.

The whole thing just seems like power gaming to me—the sort of thing that turns up in Champions. And there's a reason I run GURPS a lot and haven't run Champions in twenty years or so.
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Old 02-01-2020, 11:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
There is no way I would ever allow that one. I would be fine with Insubstantiality with respect to a substance, such as water or metal or diamond, given a plausible rationale (though I find it hard to think of one that I'd find plausible enough for a hard sf campaign). But I don't see that there is any plausible rationale for being insubstantial with respect to a particular shape, which is what "piercing" seems to amount to. Nor does it gain plausibility if you're adding the shape limitation onto a substance limitation. And I don't see recall any such limitation in the published material, except as a specialized limitation on Damage Resistance, which there is no indication is generalizable to other advantages.

The whole thing just seems like power gaming to me—the sort of thing that turns up in Champions. And there's a reason I run GURPS a lot and haven't run Champions in twenty years or so.
Pretty much. I also would not allow this.
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Old 02-01-2020, 11:26 AM   #4
naloth
 
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Default Re: Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
As everyone is aware, GURPS defenses are exceptionally expensive, but I have found that there are a number of creative methods one can use to make characters more resilient. One of my favorite examples is limited Insubstantiality. For example, imagine a male super with the following ability:

Insubstantiality (Limited, Piercing Metal Only, -60%) [32]

The character, though none of his possessions, are immune to damage from piercing metal (if shot, his clothing will suffer damage, but he will not, as the shot will pierce cloth long before the cloth can translate damage to the character). While no one can use the character for defensive cover, bullets do not bounce off him, he is capable of walking through a firefight without any concern. He is no more immune to any other damage though (he would only need Affects Substantial though if he wanted to wield piercing metal).

What other tricks do you use or allow in your games? Are there any tricks that you have banned? Are there any that you like to use for your PCs or NPCs?
While I wouldn't really have an issue with it in most games I run, it also wouldn't really be worth 32 points as a defense and you've taken away the ability to move through stuff. Being insubstantial has great utility for passing through items, but usually doesn't protect you very well since anywhere it's allowed, there are plenty of "Affect Insubstantial" abilities. Piercing may be the "go to" for modern weaponry, but it will be only a small fraction of Supers, TL4-, or even TL9+ games.

You might bought "Insubstantial to mook gun users that don't know how to exploit my weaknesses."
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Old 02-01-2020, 12:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

Insubstantial (piercing, metal -60%) is really clunky, if only because it doesn't work against metal shrapnel or ceramic bullets.

I've played around with using insubstantial to represent projectiles curving around an individual or actual invulnerability. My conclusion is you pretty much need "Effects Substantial" for either case.

Projectiles curving around you I usually represent as
Insubstantial(Affects Substantial +100%, projectiles from 10 yards away or more -60%) [112]

Or I use multiplicative modifers because its appropriate for most games I use this in:

Insubstantial(Affects Substantial +100%, projectiles from 10 yards away or more -60%) [64]

I've also used insubstantial as the base for indestructible, which I'm pretty sure is not RAW, but point-wise I'm happy with it for most cases (and this ability featured strongly in the game God-Slayers):

Insubstantial (Affects Substantial +100%, no Permeation -50%, Achilles heel -10%, Relexive +40%, Partial Change +50%) [184]
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Old 02-01-2020, 12:45 PM   #6
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

I do not think it would require Affects Substantial if we consider it logically. For example, let us say you have Insubstantiality (Limited, Cheese, -80%) [16]. It would not make any logical sense for a character to have to add Affects Substantial and have to pay 96 CP for the privilege of only being insubstantial to cheese.
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Old 02-01-2020, 12:53 PM   #7
Aldric
 
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Default Re: Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

Hey, look, this is not piercing metal, it's impaling metal :D
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Old 02-01-2020, 12:55 PM   #8
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I do not think it would require Affects Substantial if we consider it logically. For example, let us say you have Insubstantiality (Limited, Cheese, -80%) [16]. It would not make any logical sense for a character to have to add Affects Substantial and have to pay 96 CP for the privilege of only being insubstantial to cheese.
You're already proposing things that don't strike me as making any logical sense in the first place. Do you know the saying about "straining at gnats and swallowing camels"?
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Old 02-01-2020, 02:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I do not think it would require Affects Substantial if we consider it logically. For example, let us say you have Insubstantiality (Limited, Cheese, -80%) [16]. It would not make any logical sense for a character to have to add Affects Substantial and have to pay 96 CP for the privilege of only being insubstantial to cheese.
I agree with you here. At no time are you trying to effect any substantial cheese.
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Old 02-02-2020, 12:13 AM   #10
pestigor
 
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Default Re: Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

As long as there have been game master's I've never considered Gurps to be a series of "if then" statements or bunch of ruling precedents upon which to run a game.

Most of us are trying to figure out if we change something will there be unforeseen consequences that ruin the verisimilitude of our narrative but if you want to walk through a gun fight, you run through that gun fight.
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