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Old 03-28-2023, 12:41 PM   #1
Kesendeja
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Default Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

I've been trying to lay out the different Tech levels for a space opera game. Everything was going well until I started to detail their spiritual, magical and psychic advancement.

After a search on the forums I found a few threads, but all the links in them were dead, and I didn't want to necro a 15 year old thread.

Has anyone got any ideas on how to divide up their development? I appreciate any ideas.
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Old 03-28-2023, 02:06 PM   #2
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Default Re: Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

What elements of the game do these spiritual, magical, and psychic advancemenets affect?

For magic, is there anything important beyond one's level of Magery? For spiritual, Power Investiture? For psionics, one's talent level?

Basically, what problem are you trying to solve?
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Old 03-28-2023, 02:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

For the Spiritual its how the knowledge, and interaction with, of the unseen world develops.

In the case of Magic and Psionics it would be the steps in developing of the "powers". Sort of what came first in development of spells.
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Old 03-29-2023, 06:44 AM   #4
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Default Re: Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

GURPS Fantasy has some relevant material in it. In particular, you might want to take a look at Uses of Magic (pages 147–152): Low Magic, Formulaic Magic, and High Magic; and The Structure of Magic (pages 153–155): Levels of Power, Levels of Skill and Skill Hierarchies, Speed, Range, Duration, and Ritualization.

If I were constructing a “Magic Level” system, I'd probably arrange it so that the magical arts learned and performed at the lowest levels would conform to the above guidelines for Low Magic, while the middle levels would unlock Formulaic Magic and the higher levels would unlock High Magic.

In terms of Levels of Power, the lowest Magic Levels would operate using the rules of Meditative Magic or Blood Magic, where the only known fuel for magic is something that's extremely slow to recharge: Blood Magic requires you to spend HP to fuel your magic, which takes a lot longer to recover than FP; and Meditative Magic requires you to fuel your magic with the equivalent of character points, which normally don't recover on their own. Once you reach the middle levels, the standard FP-fueled magic gets unlocked; and at the higher levels, spellcasting becomes increasingly more “fuel efficient”, with spells requiring less energy to cast — sometimes even having no energy cost. Alternately, higher magical levels develop means for mages to develop personal reserves of energy and/or to increase the rate of recovery of that energy.

In terms of Levels of Skill and Skill Hierarchies, the lowest levels only have a small selection of spells available to them; in fact, “spells” as such may not even be a thing: this is where the guidelines for Low Magic come into their own. “Magic” may in fact be Talents as Magic, where performing the appropriate magical rituals can grant you up to a +4 bonus to the use of a suitable skill (bought as a Talent with Preparation Required). At a slightly higher level, but still in the Low Magic Levels, this might get enhanced to tradesmen being able to learn Mysteries of the Trade (p.162). Once you reach the middle levels, Formulaic Magic gets unlocked, and magic as its own field of study becomes a thing: spells become something that can be learned in and of themselves, and they start getting organized into Colleges. And at the higher levels, the focus shifts from Spells to Colleges, with either Ritual Magic or some form of Syntactic Magic taking the place of traditional spell lists.

In terms of Speed and Ritualization, the early middle levels should probably restrict magic to Ceremonial castings, or the equivalent: imposing something like the rules for Effect-Shaping Path Magic might be appropriate at these earlier stages. Basically, magic at these early middle levels isn't something that can be used in combat; it just takes too long. Higher up, but still in the middle levels, these restrictions go away and magic becomes something that can be cast in seconds. Once you start getting into the realm of High Magic, mages start becoming magical entities in their own rights, and magic starts to shift from being something that involves performing some sort of ritual activities (gestures, chants, etc.) to powers tha the mage wields. This would be represented in-game by unlocking something like Sorcery.

In terms of Range and Duration: up to roughly the middle of the Magic Levels, ranged magic tends to operate at a –1 penalty per yard of distance; but once you start getting into the higher end of the middle levels, magic should start using the penalties from the Speed/Range take in the Basic Set. Likewise, ongoing magical effects normally have a maintenance cost to keep them going; but Enchantment provides a way to make a magical effect permanent. At higher levels of magic, it's possible that Enchantment gets easier until the distinction between casting ongoing spells and enchanting a target becomes moot.

———

Finally, pages 151–152 discuss Historical Magic, which essentially presents a blueprint for how magical practices develop as TL increases. You might set that up as a second axis for magic, with TL determining what types of magic are available and Magic Level determining how effective those magics are.

This also ties into the Magic section on pages 18–21: Theistic and Animistic Magic (p.19) comes first at TL0 to 2, followed by various forms of Intrinsic Magic (pp.18–19) from TL3 to 5, give or take (there may be some elements of secular magic around at TL2 or even TL1; but for the most part, magic at those levels tends to be viewed as something granted by or borrowed from gods, spirits, and similar entities). Magic involving Powers of the Mind (p.20) is actually a fairly recent development, getting its start in the 19th century and coming into its own in the 20th century's phychic research, making it basically a TL6 innovation; though the notion has been refined and expanded on since it was introduced: TL8 concepts of psychic magic (e.g., postmodern magic) are likely to be very different from TL6 notions of it (e.g., telepathy, ESP, and so on). And as with secular magic, the initial TL isn't an ironclad mandate: there were some early notions of psychic magic around in TL5 as well (animal magnetism).

And remember that TL innovations don't go away: the introduction of secular magic at TL3 doesn't invalidate the spiritual magic developed at TL0–2; nor does the introduction of psychic magic at TL6 invalidate the secular magics. The higher the TL, the more types of magic are available.
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:46 AM   #5
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Default Re: Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
good stuff
This is good stuff, and I may very well use it in a future campaign. Thanks!
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Old 03-29-2023, 03:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

GURPS 3E Technomancer and the GURPS 4E conversion materials (1+ issues of Pyramid, possibly other stuff) might be helpful to give a sense of how magic might evolve in a high tech setting.

Other than that, base TL for spells/psi based on the type of items they can affect or the number of prerequisites required to acquire them.

For example, Shape Earth/TL5 might allow you to manipulate stone/metal materials as well as a TL5 foundryman, stonecutter, or blacksmith could, while Shape Earth/TL8 allows you to manipulate high tech ceramics or metal alloys with the same skill that a TL8 machinist, etc. could).

Or, the ability to do simple Telekinesis might be TL0, but things like Pyrokinesis or Cryokinesis might be TL3, and Electrokinesis requires TL6.

Another possibility is to cap levels of spell/psi skill based on TL or arbitrarily give higher TL versions of the same powers a bonus against lower TL versions.

There will also be changes to how psi/magic is taught at different TLs. Until TL3, there might be the traditional apprentice/mage relationship, formal magic schools appear at TL4, college-level schools of advanced magic appear at TL5, regular testing for magic powers appears at TL6, etc. Magic Items/psi tech might also improve with TL.

How you slice up these distinctions depends on what purpose you're trying to achieve in your campaign with the overall theme of "higher TL is better or at least different."
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Old 03-29-2023, 04:07 PM   #7
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesendeja View Post
I've been trying to lay out the different Tech levels for a space opera game. Everything was going well until I started to detail their spiritual, magical and psychic advancement.

After a search on the forums I found a few threads, but all the links in them were dead, and I didn't want to necro a 15 year old thread.

Has anyone got any ideas on how to divide up their development? I appreciate any ideas.
There was a Pyramid #2 article on how to break up the GURPS Classic Magic spells into 'tech levels'. The GURPS Classic Technomancer book had spells aimed at a late 20th century setting.
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Old 03-29-2023, 06:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

Hmmm. How would "tech" level like this work with Sorcery?
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Old 03-29-2023, 07:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
There was a Pyramid #2 article on how to break up the GURPS Classic Magic spells into 'tech levels'.
I think this was in the back of my mind while I was writing my earlier response. It was in the March 4, 2005 issue of Pyramid Volume 2: “The Five Movements of Magic”, by David Moore. It's no longer available on the web; so I'll summarize:

First Movement: Intuitive Magic
Basic Spells Only: spells that have other spells or Imagery as prerequisites don't exist.
No concept of Colleges.
“Agrarian” Spells only: animals and plants, food and water, fire and light, body and movement spells are the only ones available.
Elaborate Rituals: no matter how high your skill in a spell, treat it as11 or less for the purpose of casting rituals.
Magical Props: all spells require a prop representing a contagious or sympathetic link to the effect.

Second Movement: Utilitarian Magic
Prerequisite Spells: spells requiring Magery still aren't allowed, but others are.

No Colleges: The continued lack of Colleges means that spell prerequisites referencing “x spells from y Colleges” aren't possible yet.

New Spells: Mind-altering spells become possible.

Simple Rituals: you can gain the benefits of skill 12 for casting rituals.

No props: they're not needed anymore; but if you use them anyway, they're good for a +1.

[U]Third Movement: Structured Magic[/U[
Colleges. At this point, the only restriction on prerequisites is that spells requiring Magery are still unavailable.

Elemental Theory: add Air and Earth spells to the mix.

New Spells: add Knowledge, Making & Breaking, and Sound.

Improvised Magic: in 4e terms, Syntactic Magic becomes a possibility.

Simpler Rituals: you can gain the benefits of up to skill 18 for the purpose of casting rituals.

Fourth Movement: Abstract Magic
Magery: Magery 1 is now allowed as a prerequisite.

More Elemental Colleges: Electricity, Ice, and Weather are available.

New Colleges: Illusion & Creation and Necromantic.

No Rituals: you can gain full benefits of your skill level for the purpose of casting rituals.

Fifth Movement: Higher Magic
The remaining restrictions are lifted: spells requiring Magery 2 or 3 become possible (including the Elemental College of Acid), and the Enchantment, Gate, and Meta Colleges are added.

Advantages, Disadvantages, and Skills
Higher Magic and Unenlightened are introduced as “Magical Movement” counterparts to High Tech and Primitive; and a “Spell Research” variant of Gadgeteer is introduced.

Alchemy, Herbary, and Thaumatology become “/Mvt” skills, analogous to “/TL” skills. Thaumatology gains College-based specializations.

The article then ends with a discussion on how magic and technology interact, offering three options:

Magic Leads Technology: magic developed first, and technology developed later as a way to take some burden off of the mages: what technology can do, magic doesn't have to.

Technology leads Magic: a high-tech world suddenly gains access to magic. Third Movement Magic is achieved within a few years because the conceptual groundwork has already been established by the scientific community.

Magic Supplants Technology: everyone has access to magic from the beginning, so there's almost no incentive to develop technology. In this sort of world, “/TL” skills become “/Mvt” skills as their development is driven by magical research instead of technology: research into Body Control and Healing leads to breakthroughs in medicine and anatomy; Making & Breaking leads to metallurgy and craft skills; Elementalists develop chemistry, while physics comes from research into Light & Darkness, Movement, Sound, and Radiation. And so on.

———

This isn't quite how I'd do it. For one thing, I disagree with a number of decisions that were made in that article; for another, it's a 3e article and didn't have the benefit of access to GURPS Thaumatology; I would remake it using Thaumatology throughout. I'll make another post later with my reworking of the concept.
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Old 03-29-2023, 07:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: Help with "Tech" levels for Magic/Psyonics

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Hmmm. How would "tech" level like this work with Sorcery?
About the same as I outlined before: in a “ Magic as Powers” arrangement, “Low Magic” should end up imposing additional restrictions on what Sorcery can do and how well it can do it.
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