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Old 07-08-2019, 03:37 PM   #31
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Yes, the lines about Wall, Fire, Shadow, Rope, and illusions of plain weapons are, it seems to me, the exceptions that reinforce the rule that all other illusions can't/don't have physical effects on non-intelligent/living things.

And, back on original topic, those exceptions don't cover illusions of creatures with senses.

I think there is a grey area though about what an image or illusion can see, and maybe also whether they can actually seem to pass through doors or curtains and what the limit on that would be.
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Old 07-08-2019, 04:35 PM   #32
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
Where do the rules say that a wizard will only see what they think they will see?
You really cannot see what I'm posting can you. Scroll up read...
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Old 07-08-2019, 04:49 PM   #33
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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I think there is a grey area though about what an image or illusion can see, and maybe also whether they can actually seem to pass through doors or curtains and what the limit on that would be.
I agree. It is not at all clear cut as the excerpts from RAW that I have posted clearly show.

The illusion spell has limitations, and those are spelled out most clearly in the quote, flagged by SJ as the general rule: that an illusion behaves as the wizard believes the world to be. This shows it is not interacting with the real physical world, but the world as imagined by the spell caster. Which is why an illusion of an owl cannot see things in the dark that you don't know about.

And let's think about the purpose of the spell, which is to make somebody else think something is there, which is not there. It's a mental projection, nothing more, designed to fool and maybe harm. It's not a scouting or seeing spell at heart and I don't believe that an illusion of a rattlesnake will be able to tell you how many warm bodies are around that corner. And if this was the general ruling, that you can stand on an illusion of a chair, then it is so powerful as to be completely unbalanced. Want to fly? Just conjure a giant eagle and it can carry you. Want to break down that wall, just rustle up an elephant and its have it over in a second. Drowning? Just create an illusory bubble of air around you.

In fact, re passing through doors it is explicitly stated, as quoted RAW, that illusions can never do that (no exceptions mentioned). They pass through tripwires, and walk over hidden pits. "If you try and walk over an illusory bridge your foot will pass right through it". (Whether you think your walking over the bridge or not!) Because they cannot affect physical reality. Why? Because objects cannot believe in them. Illusions are not real!

Last edited by MikMod; 07-08-2019 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:38 PM   #34
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Right. Good point on the doors. There's that situation that was discussed here some months ago too about whether you can make an Image/Illusion of a door that opens, or of someone going through an existing door, or not. To which I sometimes say you could make an Image but it would need to be an image of the room revealed, which wouldn't be actually revealing the room, but showing an image as conjured by the wizard. Kind of like you can make an illusion of a pit. But perhaps an easier/better answer is "no you can't" on the notion that you can't make anything go away with an image/illusion, so the closed door would be visible and defy an illusionary one, though that's contradicted by the idea you can make a pit illusion.

Etc.

Having been through such questions in practically every campaign I've run, and ruled or re-invented how illusions work somewhat (or very much) differently in each, it seems to me that handling all situations consistently can be a complex problem with many details to consider. And the specific answers can be very important to various game situations.
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Old 07-09-2019, 12:03 AM   #35
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
You really cannot see what I'm posting can you. Scroll up read...
I reread all your posts. You have not quoted any rule at all regarding seeing through an illusion's eyes. If I have missed one, please show me the rule and its location.

So far, you have talked about doors, pits, etc. which have nothing to do with seeing.
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Old 07-09-2019, 12:56 AM   #36
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
I agree. It is not at all clear cut as the excerpts from RAW that I have posted clearly show.

The illusion spell has limitations, and those are spelled out most clearly in the quote, flagged by SJ as the general rule: that an illusion behaves as the wizard believes the world to be. This shows it is not interacting with the real physical world, but the world as imagined by the spell caster. Which is why an illusion of an owl cannot see things in the dark that you don't know about.

And let's think about the purpose of the spell, which is to make somebody else think something is there, which is not there. It's a mental projection, nothing more, designed to fool and maybe harm. It's not a scouting or seeing spell at heart and I don't believe that an illusion of a rattlesnake will be able to tell you how many warm bodies are around that corner. And if this was the general ruling, that you can stand on an illusion of a chair, then it is so powerful as to be completely unbalanced. Want to fly? Just conjure a giant eagle and it can carry you. Want to break down that wall, just rustle up an elephant and its have it over in a second. Drowning? Just create an illusory bubble of air around you.

In fact, re passing through doors it is explicitly stated, as quoted RAW, that illusions can never do that (no exceptions mentioned). They pass through tripwires, and walk over hidden pits. "If you try and walk over an illusory bridge your foot will pass right through it". (Whether you think your walking over the bridge or not!) Because they cannot affect physical reality. Why? Because objects cannot believe in them. Illusions are not real!
These statements all look to be true to me, illusions interact with the world as known to (not imagined by) the spell caster but illusions see the world objectively (page 137, 8th para of "Creation Spells") and this helps to inform the wizard about how the illusion will act. If a wizard sees a pit in the room through an illusion's eyes and the illusion attempts to walk over the pit, it will fall in.

You can make a useful illusionary scout (page 139, right before the pit example), which means the illusion will accurately see things around the corner that you don't know about and your illusionary owl will definitely see in the dark if you have Mage Sight (see page 137).

Whether an illusionary owl can see in the dark if you do not have Mage Sight is not clear from the rules. That's a gray area, as Skarg mentioned.
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:29 AM   #37
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
illusions see the world objectively (page 137, 8th para of "Creation Spells")
I'm sorry, but that paragraph does not say that illusions see the world in any other way than the spell caster thinks it already is.

I'm just working off the (stated) general rule here. The rule specifically under illusions. Illusions only 'know' what the wizard 'knows'. "It's effects are the product of the wizards mind". Sure, you can see through its eyes, and you will see what you think you will see. For me and my campaign this works very well and provides a reasonable and RAW limit to a spell which is already arguably the most powerful spell in TFT.

I agree the statement about a 'useful' scout contradicts this, but that's not the only problem with the rules, and as per other grey areas I have had to house-rule a clear answer. For me, the general principle of illusions only knowing what the wizard knows and acting and behaving in that way appears to be the best resolution.

Otherwise an illusion is no different from a summoning, except it can be disbelieved, and there are a ton of situations where there isn't anyone to disbelieve. It's already OP, let's not add to that?

Last edited by MikMod; 07-09-2019 at 02:39 AM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:37 AM   #38
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
I'm sorry, but that paragraph does not say that illusions see the world in any other way than the spell caster thinks it already is.

I'm just working off the (stated) general rule here. The rule specifically under illusions. Illusions only 'know' what the wizard 'knows'. "It's effects are the product of the wizards mind". For me and my campaign this works very well and provides a reasonable and RAW limit to a spell which is already arguably the most powerful spell in TFT.
It says exactly the same thing for summoned creatures as for illusions and there are no exceptions indicated for how illusions see.

Page 139 says illusions make useful scouts. How is this possible if what an illusion sees is the product of a wizard's mind?
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:42 AM   #39
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Page 139 says illusions make useful scouts. How is this possible if what an illusion sees is the product of a wizard's mind?
Because if there are any unseen enemies who see the illusion moving in advance of the actual party, they may react to it, revealing themselves.
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:51 AM   #40
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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It says exactly the same thing for summoned creatures as for illusions and there are no exceptions indicated for how illusions see.

Page 139 says illusions make useful scouts. How is this possible if what an illusion sees is the product of a wizard's mind?
You are drawing from the general introduction, I am drawing from the more detailed rules for illusions. I agree there are contradictions. I've chosen to follow the stated general rule under illusions.
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