Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-04-2012, 04:14 AM   #31
JP42
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

Watch the "7 Shot" segment at about the 1 minute mark in the video. It's the only one where he's careless enough to let us see him fully in profile as he shoots. You'll see that regardless of the draw weight of the bow (which later in the video appears to be remarkably low), he's also only taking 4-6" of draw distance. I'm not sure if this should be covered under Bow Sport or Bow Art or just plain Acting.
JP42 is offline  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:20 AM   #32
sjard
Stick in the Mud
 
sjard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Rural Utah
Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

All I can say is that video makes it look an awful lot like what SCA speed archers have been doing for decades. Just with slightly different methods.

Personally, real world, I'd find it much harder to hold the extra arrows that way than just draw from a shoulder quiver if I had to move, or just sticking three or four arrows in the dirt in front of me if I didn't have to move. I've never been particularly good with a hip quiver.


Edit: <Moderator> Threads Merged </Moderator>
__________________
MIB #1457

Last edited by sjard; 12-04-2012 at 04:25 AM.
sjard is offline  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:44 AM   #33
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
There is little that would be useful in a fight. The bow was underpowered, he never used a full draw, and the arrows were too light - his shots would barely deliver a single point of damage with the GURPS system. Those arrows might annoy someone who was naked and standing right in front of the shooter, but they'd bounce off a jacket or denim jeans (DR 0 clothing).
I sort of disagree. As suppression fire or against lightly armed foes it could be a devastating tactic. Sure, he's trading accuracy and power for speed, so his shots, in GURPS terms, probably had a -2 penalty to damage (meaning many bounced off even cheap mail), but in his flight of 6 shots he managed to get a decent damage roll.

The point wasn't that he could drive an arrow all the way through mail, it's that he could get the odd shot through mail using speed shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Look at the mail shot again. He seems to have chosen links that were very large and an arrowhead that was very small.
The arrowhead is perfectly within specs as a historical style bodkin head arrow. Not all arrows were huge things designed to be shot from artillery bows. They're sized to the draw weight of the bow. So, while I agree that he's using a pretty wimpy bow, there's no reason to say that the arrow was too narrow.

And, if you can get away with it, you want narrow arrows - less mass (therefore, better acceleration), less drag and less friction as you penetrate the target. That's why modern aluminum hunting arrows have a relatively thin cross section. The trade-off is that skinny arrows will shatter or flex excessively if shot from a powerful bow.

As for the mail, we both know that historical mail could have different diameter rings. He chose cheap mail with relatively large links. In GURPS terms, let's call it "Light Mail."

I maintain that the video shows a legitimate combat technique - albeit one mostly designed for hunting. But, since I assume that GURPS Bow skill is basically "instinctive archery" - which is used for hunting - that means that speed shooting defaults directly from GURPS Bow skill.
Pursuivant is offline  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:56 AM   #34
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

Here's my take on a technique for speed shooting various forms of hand weapons, adapted to cover Speed Shooting bows.

Note that it's not specifically designed for bows, it also covers speed-loading drills for things like crossbows and muzzle-loading firearms.

Quote:

Speed Shooting
Hard

Defaults: Any Ranged Weapon-5, Fast-Draw (Ammunition)-5.
Prerequisite: Any Ranged Weapon and Fast-Draw (Ammunition); cannot exceed Fast-Draw (Ammunition) skill.

Speed shooting covers techniques of shooting a ranged weapon with a multi-step loading process quickly, by seamlessly integrating the acts of drawing and loading the ammunition with the act of readying and shooting the weapon. Successful use of Speed Shooting skill allows you to temporarily exceed your weapon’s nominal rate of fire.
You must specialize by weapon type. Your specialization of Fast Draw (Ammunition) must be for ammunition for that weapon.
Roll vs. Speed Shooting to reduce the time required to load and shoot your weapon by 10%, down to a minimum 1 second or 20% of the time normally required to load the weapon, whichever is greater.
Failure means that you don’t save any time and you have a penalty to hit with your attack equal to your margin of failure unless you take at least one second to Aim. Failure by 4 or more means that you drop the weapon or the ammunition, or the tool you use to load or cock the weapon (e.g., ramrod or goat’s foot). Critical failure means that you damage the weapon, hurt yourself or spill your ammunition in such a way that it is lost or ruined. The exact details depend on the weapon.
You cannot Aim while speed-shooting!
Speed Shooting Bows: Realistically, it is possible to shoot a bow very quickly by holding extra arrows in your hands as you draw the bow and quickly nocking them after you shoot the previous arrow.
It is also possible to speed your rate of fire by not fully drawing the bow and by not using a fixed anchor point when you release the arrow. This means that you lose accuracy, range and damage potential.
You can hold half as many arrows between your fingers as you have fingers (rounding up). Placing each arrow takes 2 seconds and prevents you from wearing anything heavier than a light glove on the hand used to draw the bow.
You get a +3 bonus to your Speed Shooting Technique to shoot the readied arrows, but a -1 penalty to hit. Your Speed Shooting (Bow) technique is not limited by your Fast-Draw (Arrow) skill as long as you are shooting arrows held “in hand.”
You can also hold arrows in your bow hand and draw them from your hand rather than from a quiver or the ground. You can hold up to 3 arrows in this fashion. You must use Fast Draw (Arrow) skill to shift each arrow from one hand to the other, but if you succeed, you get a +3 bonus to your Speed Shooting Technique. In any case, however, you have a -1 penalty to hit.
If you have arrows in both hands, you have a -2 penalty to hit.
If you wish, you can get a +3 bonus to your Speed Shooting technique by accepting a 25% reduction in the bow’s effective ST and a -1 penalty to hit your target, or a +5 bonus if you accept a 50% reduction in the bow’s effective ST and a -2 penalty to hit.
In any case, if you make your Speed Shooting (Bow) roll by 10 or more, you can attempt to make multiple shots in one second, using the Cinematic Speed Shooting rules, below, even if you don’t have the Heroic Archer advantage, but only if you have arrows "in hand."
Realistically, archers trained in speed shooting can shoot about 3 arrows every 2 seconds, as long as they have arrows “in hand” and are willing to trade power and accuracy for speed.
Cinematic Speed Shooting: In a Cinematic game, if you have one or more of the Gunslinger, Heroic Archer, Sharpshooter, Trained by a Master or Weapon Master advantages the GM can rule that your Speed-Shooting technique isn’t limited by your Fast-Draw skill.
Furthermore, if you make your skill roll to draw your ammunition, load it, ready your weapon and point it all in one turn, you can make another Speed Shooting skill roll at -6, plus -1 per additional 10% reduction in loading and reading time, in order to ready or shoot another round of ammunition. Effectively, you prepare and shoot the first missile in “zero time” and can begin to ready another shot on the same turn!
If you completely ready a second missile, you can shoot it on the same turn as the first, but you have a cumulative -4 penalty to hit with your weapon skill. Once you shoot your second missile, you can then make another Speed Shooting skill roll at -12, plus the usual penalties for compressed action, in order to ready or shoot a third missile on the same turn, and so on, taking a cumulative -6 penalty to Speed Shooting skill and a -4 penalty to weapon skill per missile after the first.
Modifiers: Per 10% of time reduction beyond 10%, -1; Using a unfamiliar weapon or ammunition - even if it is basically similar to what you’re used to, -1 to -4; Combat Reflexes, +1; Enhanced Time Sense, +2; Per level of Altered Time Rate, +2; Per Extra Attack, +2; Per level of Ham-Fisted, -3.
Cinematic Modifiers: If you can make a successful Zen Archery or Zen Missile skill roll at the beginning of your turn, bonus equal to half your margin of success; Per shot in the same turn after the first, -6; Aiming your second or subsequent shot at a different target than the one you engaged with your first shot, -5.
Pursuivant is offline  
Old 12-04-2012, 05:02 AM   #35
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Until the arrow bounces off the deer at 15 metres because he only pulled 10 lbs to draw it
I wasn't thinking of deer. I was thinking of birds on the wing or small game like rabbits.

Slow things down a bit and give him a decent bow (the credits listed the bows used as being 30 and 35 pounds) and this technique could be effective against larger game or a human-sized enemy.
Pursuivant is offline  
Old 12-04-2012, 05:40 AM   #36
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
It's depressingly easy to drive a bodkin or target head arrow through unpadded riveted iron mail, whether or not it's mounted on a board or worn.
Hardly. Properly riveted mail is very hard to penetrate even without padding. Mail saw continuous use for two thousand years and during that whole time the most common threat was from spears and arrows. The crappy riveted mail that is imported from India has little in common with extant museum samples.

Quote:
That's one of the the reason that mail was padded
Mail was padded mainly to protect against blunt trauma. On a human body it protects fine against points with just a layer of clothing underneath.

Quote:
and it's also one of the reasons that mail was abandoned in favor of lamellar or plate.
Mail was replaced with plate because plate became cheaper to make. Mail was never superseded by lamellar. Lamellar was usually only used when mail was unavailable or unaffordable.

Quote:
Bodkin head arrows have been found on medieval battlefields, in some cases imbedded in dead bodies.
None of them were wearing mail.

Quote:
There have also been sheaves of bodkin point arrows found aboard the Mary Rose (16th century English warship, sank in battle with archers aboard).
IIRC there were no arrowheads found at all. The types of arrowheads were guessed by the outline of rust impressions on the material on which they were resting

Quote:
So, that's pretty good evidence that they were either designed for, or could be used in, battle.
They were used in battle but I can build a solid argument that the bodkin was intended for warbow flight arrows - not armour piercers.

Quote:
As for the mail, we both know that historical mail could have different diameter rings. He chose cheap mail with relatively large links. In GURPS terms, let's call it "Light Mail."
Low-Tech would maybe call it "cheap" light mail. It can be torn apart with bare hands. This Indian mail is useless against weapons and I haven't seen an extant example that even vaguely resembles this stuff so put it in Fantasy-Tech, not Low-Tech.

Read this
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html

and this
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189
__________________
Compact Castles gives the gamer an instant portfolio of genuine, real-world castle floorplans to use in any historical, low-tech, or fantasy game setting.

Last edited by DanHoward; 12-04-2012 at 06:04 AM.
DanHoward is offline  
Old 12-04-2012, 08:46 AM   #37
Peter V. Dell'Orto
Fightin' Round the World
 
Peter V. Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Drat. It is canonical that arrows stuck in the ground in front of you give a bonus, and Toadkiller Dog wrote the book!
I'm pretty sure Sean wrote that part.

The thing about most speed-shooting is it's not done under combat conditions. The rules in the GURPS books for this assume combat conditions! Then the rules give generous bonuses to people with unrealistic abilities like Weapon Master and Heroic Archer so they can do these things with ease, just like in the movies and in video games.

Meanwhile in the real world, in the right circumstances, you can replicate or partly replicate these things. But GURPS is all about "but I do it at the full run in a chaotic combat one second after I did it to someone else with no additional prep!" and you roll at your normal skill . . .
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD
My Author Page
My S&C Blog
My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog
"You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev
Peter V. Dell'Orto is offline  
Old 12-04-2012, 10:31 AM   #38
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

Playing around with the Martial Arts rules here: assuming a realistic game.

Special Setup Perk, as DWA is not normally something that can be offset with a technique in a realistic game. In this case, this technique requires (say) a minute of preparation for the archer to get "settled in" to the space, arrange their equipment properly, sight the target, etc. Any change in the archers facing, position, target, or target location requires another minute of preparation.

(Adjust requirements to taste).

Archer will usually want to Fast Draw arrows with this technique, at least 2 at a time (at -2 per roll).

Ancient Fast Firing Technique of my Ancestors
Hard technique, defaults to Bow-3, can be bought up to a maximum of Bow skill.
Prerequisite: Special Setup Perk (AFFTomA)

Note: The normal use of this technique counts as a special All Out Attack option, and cannot be combined with other AOA options. It can be used in combat as a regular attack at an additional -5 penalty - this penalty cannot be bought off.

The Archer must have two arrows to perform this technique. The Archer makes a roll at AFFTomA-2 to reduce the time to ready the bow to 1 second (0 seconds with a Fast Draw roll).

The Archer then makes two bow attacks at AFFTomA level, with the following adjustments - Damage is -2 (or -1/die, whichever is worse) and 1/2dam and Max ranges are halved. An animate target gets -1 to defend due to the sheer speed of the attack. Both arrows must be fired at the same target.

-----

Behind the scenes:
This is based on using an All Out Attack: Determined to execute a realistic Quick-Shooting as per Martial Arts p120 - can be performed at -6 on range conditions, +1 for Determined. I'm granting the +1 also to the roll to quick-ready the bow as I'm a kind and loving GM[1].
Note that in battlefield conditions there is an additional -4 penalty to use this in a realistic campaign! As I am a kind and loving GM[1], I allow it to be used on the battlefield without the -4 as long as you're still All Out Attacking...
Quick-Shooting is combined with the Dual-Weapon attack option (which is realistic to use, but normally not to buy off). In this case there's a little handwaving and this can represent firing firing two at once, or one arrow at a time, so close together the target still gets the -1 to defences from sheer surprise. I'm cool either way, that's just game fluff, not mechanics.
The downsides to this technique are the damage penalty (giving a +4) and two Special Drawbacks (representing halving 1/2dam and Max, and not being able to split your attacks), which are applied to the to-hit rolls.
This gives
* a quick-ready roll of -6+1 = -5
* two attack rolls at -6-4+1+4+2 = -3 each, subject defends at -1.

In combat, w/out an All Out Attack, you loose the +1 from Determined, and suffer the additional -4 for not being cinematic, for a net -5 that can't be bought off because this isn't a cinematic game.

--------

In a cinematic game, the following technique is available:

Highly Effective Fast Firing Technique of my Ancestors
Defaults to Bow-3.
Prerequisite: Heroic Archer

This is a regular attack, and can be combined with any combat options or attack maneuvers you feel like. No special penalties for "in combat" vs "range shooting".

Fast-Draw two arrows at -1
Quick-Ready: HEFFTomA
Two attacks: HEFFTomA, -1 damage (or -1/2 dice if worse). If used against one target, that target suffers a -1 to defences due to the lightning fast incoming projectiles.

---
Breakdown:
Regular Quick-Drawing Bows (which is at -3 instead of -6 because Heroic Archer) combined with regular Dual-Weapon attack (which is at -2 instead of -4 because Heroic Archer), +2 because of damage penalty.

[1] This is sort of like how the faeries are "good neighbours". Sometimes they polish your shoes. Sometimes they steal the cow.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A GURPS blog
Bruno is offline  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:25 PM   #39
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Slow things down a bit and give him a decent bow (the credits listed the bows used as being 30 and 35 pounds) and this technique could be effective against larger game or a human-sized enemy.
If you replace the toy bow with a real one, let him draw the arrow more than a couple of inches back and consequencely slow him down considerably...

...You have a normal use of the Fast-Draw and Quick-Shooting Bows rules from GURPS MA.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:56 PM   #40
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

Does setting your magazines out on the ground next to you assist in Fast Draw ammo also for rifles?
Kalzazz is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
archer, bow, bow art, martial arts, tactical shooting, weapon master

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.