10-21-2018, 05:47 PM | #31 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Slaves
Quote:
It also appears that slaves in the ante-bellum South were a form of production. Indeed the agitation among British textile workers against slavery can be taken as a clash of participants in two incompatible forms of production.
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Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more. |
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10-22-2018, 03:55 AM | #32 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bristol
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Re: Slaves
Quote:
17th Centruy slavery onwards was about primitive capital accumulation. As soon as a Slave became too old, infirm, ill etc they could be cast out and a new Slave bought to replace them. Slaves were on 'tap'. After independence the USA expanded its terriritory thus requiring in more Slaves which the British tried hamper the trade in Slaves. This was nothing like Antiquity, Slaves were long term investments. They could be come free, and it made no sense to mistreat them. When more slaves were required (ie by the 1,000s) then Slaves would be used in the army as freed slaves, and after the conflict they could be given land to farm and have their own slaves. Moreover, there was no racist ideology in Antiquity. Whereas the slaves of modernity were the basis to justify slavery through pseudo racist ideology. Many Christians were slave owners (iirc the Quakers turned their back on it) and many of the slaves created their own Churches and prayed to the same god as their masters. Slavery in Antiquity could be killed in warfare and the consequence of the vanquished. Slavery of modernity was a blood trade in human cargo where death was rife the the traders compensated through insurance. I would argue the Slave of Antiquity had some form of dignity and a higher status to the Slave of Modernity. It would be the lowest status: treated as beasts of burden, property, lower intellegience, and racism towards skin colour. That's how I see it but a gm can dispence with nuance and just simplyfy to whatever they feel is necessary. |
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10-22-2018, 06:36 AM | #33 | |
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Re: Slaves
Quote:
*But then there were also well treated house slaves in the Americas. Hence the traditional slur. |
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10-22-2018, 07:09 AM | #34 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Slaves
Quote:
But on the other, slaves in the ante-bellum South were also effectively machinery, and were priced as such. See Fogel and Engerman's Time on the Cross for the industrialization of southern agriculture on the plantations. Of course, the South was distinctive in that its slaves were ethnically different (though there were also free persons of color, notably in Louisiana, and I believe that early on there were enslaved whites). But that was partially true in Rome, where slaves came from conquered peoples such as the Germans. And certainly in the Middle Ages ethnic distinctiveness was typical. Consider the etymology of the word "slave" from "Slav." Free Romans or Western Europeans could certainly recognize a German or a Bulgarian, even if they were both "white" in 19th or 20th century terms, and didn't hesitate to embrace ethnic stereotypes about them—any more, for that matter, than 19th century Americans hesitated to stereotype the Irish. The ethnic differences were really obvious in the South, but on the other hand there were light-skinned blacks who "passed" for whites, and there was a cultural hierarchy among blacks from dark-skinned to light-skinned. So I'm not seeing the dichotomy you describe. I do see a difference in that people in the ancient world could be enslaved in war or for debt, and were thus always aware that they might suffer as their slaves did; but on the other hand I don't think that necessarily prevented their treating slaves harshly. I think your model has a little too much "either/or" and not enough "both/and."
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Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more. Last edited by whswhs; 10-22-2018 at 07:13 AM. |
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10-22-2018, 09:33 AM | #35 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Slaves
Quote:
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"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison |
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10-22-2018, 10:10 AM | #36 |
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Re: Slaves
Slaves would have a hefty Duty based on their responsibilities. A field slave would be in service virtually every hour of every day. A slave to the royal family would have intermittent responsibilities through the day.
Most slaves would be dead-broke. Many cultures had laws that slaves could not be found in possession of a coin. However the Romans had very wealthy slaves in service to generals and Senators. As a general rule no owner will allow their slave to represent them poorly in appearance or ability. If a slave is expected to travel it will have money, if it is expected to interact with wealthy persons it will have the means to present itself well. Social Stigma is entirely based on how society feels about that form of slavery. A fantasy realm under siege by Orks might throw rocks at ork slaves or murder them when they catch them away from others. A Fantasy world where everyone typically employs slavery to attend to basic household needs might not have any kind of social stigma, it's hard to hate a slave when there's one just like them tucking your children in at night. Is slavery a punishment in your world? Is it an economic judgement? Is it the fate of those who fight against your King? The why's determine how slaves would be treated. Slaves can be any status you want. Rome's slaves were often more powerful than her Citizens. Harem Slaves would hold a great deal of status in a society. Slaves could be Status -4, but status isn't just a number. There would have to be 3 distinct social classes between slaves and ordinary free folk. I'd recommend that the base Status of a slave be -1. You could differentiate between Servants and the unemployed and slaves but from the point of view of society you'd have to have some remarkable social features to matter less than the dirty rabble. Especially in a society where slavery is common, peasants aren't going to be telling slaves they have to go back to the end of the line with all of the other filthy slavies. |
10-22-2018, 10:40 AM | #37 | |
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Re: Slaves
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10-22-2018, 11:56 AM | #38 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Slaves
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Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more. |
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10-29-2018, 02:14 PM | #39 |
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Re: Slaves
In our society that's totally how slavery works but slavery can be very different in another world. The people who serve average citizens could be owned but have greater freedoms or social privileges than the average citizen. Think of the Unsullied in Game of Thrones. They're slaves but the slaves of the queen if they're coming down the street, you'r the one that gets out of the way and apologizes.
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10-29-2018, 03:04 PM | #40 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Slaves
Quote:
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Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more. |
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