Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

The point of the Perk is simply a skill substitution. Instead of using your weapon skill to Feint, you use Acrobatics (or Sex Appeal or Dancing whatever the character's special Feinting schtick may be). It's not an entire new rules subsystem, with no reason to think all sort of rules other than "you use your weapon skill to Feint" change.

If you also want to ignore the Move and Attack cap, then try to talk the GM into allowing that as a Rules Exemption Perk in addition to Acrobatic Feints. The M&A cap isn't an optional rule, so that's bending the Rules Exemption description a bit. But it is pretty narrowly focused ("ignore the M&A cap for Acrobatic Feints"), since it doesn't cover anything but a Feint or your other weapon attacks.

I kept doing more research on the acrobatic feint. It seems that if you take -4 for move and attack, -2 for acrobatic attack and an extra -1, then you can ignore the skill cap at 9. This is on MA107.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Hide

I kept doing more research on the acrobatic feint. It seems that if you take -4 for move and attack, -2 for acrobatic attack and an extra -1, then you can ignore the skill cap at 9. This is on MA107.

No, for two reasons.

1 - "The benefits and drawbacks of Move and Attack “stack” with those of your acrobatic feat." Also the paragraphs repeatedly mention "the effective skill limit of 9".

2 - "When creating a technique based on Acrobatic Attack..." and "Neither is Deceptive Attack, unless you’re making an attack that removes the skill cap (such as a slam or a cinematic technique like Flying Jump Kick), as it requires a final effective skill of at least 10."


In other words that "-1, then you can ignore the skill cap at 9" is only for creating Techniques that specifically remove the skill cap (like Flying Jump Kick). Those Techniques are likely to be Cinematic.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

No, for two reasons.

1 - "The benefits and drawbacks of Move and Attack “stack” with those of your acrobatic feat." Also the paragraphs repeatedly mention "the effective skill limit of 9".

2 - "When creating a technique based on Acrobatic Attack..." and "Neither is Deceptive Attack, unless you’re making an attack that removes the skill cap (such as a slam or a cinematic technique like Flying Jump Kick), as it requires a final effective skill of at least 10."

In other words that "-1, then you can ignore the skill cap at 9" is only for creating Techniques that specifically remove the skill cap (like Flying Jump Kick). Those Techniques are likely to be Cinematic.

I see, I see. But if you can make acrobatic feints, then you can buy the technique "acrobatic feints" skill, right?... Just the same way you would buy a specialized feint for a sword or an axe. Would not those be techniques as well?

Thanks for your comments,
- Hide

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Hide

I see, I see. But if you can make acrobatic feints, then you can buy the technique "acrobatic feints" skill, right?...

Yes, you can raise Acrobatic Feint as technique. However, that doesn't automatically overcome the rules for Move and Attack. To do so, you'd have to design a new technique that did avoid them. More precisely, the GM would have to design such a technique, and allow it in their game. Not all techniques are valid, even if they can be designed using the technique building system. The GM is free to say "Sorry, you can't do that".

If the GM did allow such a technique, though, it might look something like this:

Mobility Feint

Hard

Default: Acrobatics-7; Cannot exceed Acrobatics.

This cinematic technique allows you to tumble, front-flip, or otherwise move towards your opponent in a way that confuses and deceives them. This is a Move and Attack maneuver that allows a Feint, using your Acrobatics, and does not suffer the usual skill cap of 9 for Move and Attack. Additionally, it counts as acrobatic movement, meaning that if you succeed on the Acrobatics roll (regardless of whether you win the Quick Contest), your next Dodge counts as an Acrobatic Dodge, with +2.
To attempt this technique, you must be able to move within your reach of the opponent you are trying to deceive.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Yes, you can raise Acrobatic Feint as technique. However, that doesn't automatically overcome the rules for Move and Attack. To do so, you'd have to design a new technique that did avoid them. More precisely, the GM would have to design such a technique, and allow it in their game. Not all techniques are valid, even if they can be designed using the technique building system. The GM is free to say "Sorry, you can't do that".

If the GM did allow such a technique, though, it might look something like this:

Mobility Feint

Hard

Default: Acrobatics-7; Cannot exceed Acrobatics.

This cinematic technique allows you to tumble, front-flip, or otherwise move towards your opponent in a way that confuses and deceives them. This is a Move and Attack maneuver that allows a Feint, using your Acrobatics, and does not suffer the usual skill cap of 9 for Move and Attack. Additionally, it counts as acrobatic movement, meaning that if you succeed on the Acrobatics roll (regardless of whether you win the Quick Contest), your next Dodge counts as an Acrobatic Dodge, with +2.
To attempt this technique, you must be able to move within your reach of the opponent you are trying to deceive.

Thanks, this is what I was talking about, indeed.

[Plane]

What is the reach though? It's straightforward enough with weapons, but not always as clear with unarmed skills.

I would assume for example with Boxing or the 3 grappling forms you could only feint at range C because none of them have kicks, but with Brawling/Karate you could feint at range 1 because they can be used to do kicks.

Perhaps Acrobatics could begin with Range C, but be able to feint at Range 1 with the Acrobatic Kicks perk?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Plane

What is the reach though? It's straightforward enough with weapons, but not always as clear with unarmed skills.

I would assume for example with Boxing or the 3 grappling forms you could only feint at range C because none of them have kicks, but with Brawling/Karate you could feint at range 1 because they can be used to do kicks.

Yes, that's how I'd rule it. If all you have are natural weapons, you have to get in appropriate range to use one of them. Note, however, that a kick defaults to DX-2, as well as Brawling and Karate, meaning it's always an option even if you don't have one of those skills.

Originally Posted by Plane

Perhaps Acrobatics could begin with Range C, but be able to feint at Range 1 with the Acrobatic Kicks perk?

I wouldn't worry about this, since, as I noted above, kicking is always an option, regardless of whether you have Acrobatic Kicks or not.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Plane

What is the reach though? It's straightforward enough with weapons, but not always as clear with unarmed skills. (...) Perhaps Acrobatics could begin with Range C, but be able to feint at Range 1 with the Acrobatic Kicks perk? (...)

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Yes, that's how I'd rule it. If all you have are natural weapons, you have to get in appropriate range to use one of them (...)

I think you are assuming melee contact during the feint "attack".

Feints needn’t be limited to melee combat. When I thought/asked of this feint I was also considering the "ranged feint" established on MA/121.

The intention of this feat is not hitting the guy using acrobatics (melee), but using acrobatics to fake your maneuvers. So, it could be either for ranged or for close combat.

So, as long as the guy sees you, it is OK; it puts to work the perk "acrobatic feints", regardless of range and regardless of "acrobatic kicks perk" (which has another scope).

Also, consider you can always move and attack on your next turn, that puts you into range if your enemy is not in your weapon's range. When you execute the feint both of you are in the range of vision and presenting a threat (either the ranged weapon's range or the move and attack range). This is where the "mobility feint" comes into play, you are also with the intention of moving into melee range (or actually, moving towards your target while feinting).

- Hide

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Hide

I think you are assuming melee contact during the feint "attack".

Feints needn’t be limited to melee combat. When I thought/asked of this feint I was also considering the "ranged feint" established on MA/121.

Given that the logic of "ranged feints" is basically totally different than melee feints (it's about reading your opponent's body language, knowing which way they're going to jump when you shoot, rather than using your own movements to throw them off), I definitely wouldn't allow this technique to apply to a ranged attack. If you wanted a Ranged Mobile Feint, that would be a different technique, and I'd be even more skeptical about allowing Acrobatics to do it.

Originally Posted by Hide

Also, consider you can always move and attack on your next turn, that puts
you into range if your enemy is not in your weapon's range.

Feint is pretty clear about requiring an attack on the enemy to be possible in order to make it. No matter how you slice it, if you are more than Basic Move + Weapon Reach away from the target when you start, no attack on them is possible, and thus feint is not allowed. To overcome that limitation, you'd need at least another -1 to the default penalty, but I don't think I'd allow it. It doesn't matter how flippy or acrobatic you are while moving, if you're not within range to threaten the opponent, they're not going to devote the attention to you that would be required for you to deceive them.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Given that the logic of "ranged feints" is basically totally different than melee feints (it's about reading your opponent's body language, knowing which way they're going to jump when you shoot, rather than using your own movements to throw them off), I definitely wouldn't allow this technique to apply to a ranged attack. If you wanted a Ranged Mobile Feint, that would be a different technique, and I'd be even more skeptical about allowing Acrobatics to do it.

Feint is pretty clear about requiring an attack on the enemy to be possible in order to make it. No matter how you slice it, if you are more than Basic Move + Weapon Reach away from the target when you start, no attack on them is possible, and thus feint is not allowed. To overcome that limitation, you'd need at least another -1 to the default penalty, but I don't think I'd allow it. It doesn't matter how flippy or acrobatic you are while moving, if you're not within range to threaten the opponent, they're not going to devote the attention to you that would be required for you to deceive them.

I see, when it comes to melee I am OK with being in the "basic move + weapon reach" range; so I agree with you.

On the ranged feint part, I understand your point; however, what kind of factors play in your skepticism?

- Hide