Resolved,There is no point to statting up anything that is not a PC

[Darekun]

There's also the matter that this reply comes up when asking how to stat weird abilities, or abilities that fall into cracks in the system.

Maybe, as a guideline, if someone asks how to stat something and you're going to suggest not statting it, you should also provide some suggestions conducive to statting it? If it's a case like generic mooks it shouldn't be hard, and if it's a case that's actually hard, it may be best to assume that's why they asked.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by riprock

You see, there is a virtue to forcing the GM to write up point totals in that case: if the GM commits to a point budget, the exercise becomes less prone to GM abuse.

If I recruit experienced GURPS players and I tell them, "There's four of you, you get 250-point characters, and the Big Bad Guy is a 1000-point superhero," then the players know that I'm going to play fair.

Not really. As has been said several times, 1000 points can be enough to utterly slaughter a party - or be a complete and utter pushover. Those 1000 points don't have any guidelines on how to spend them. I can pour every single point into Weapon Master (Swords), Sword! skill,, maybe some Imbuements or something for swords, and basically tear through one or two PCs per round. Or I could put 4 points each into 250 skills, and die quickly (but well-roundely!). And if you say "Well, I meant spend 1000 points and build a reasonable character", my response would be "If you trust me to build a reasonable character, why do I need a budget anyway?".

In any case, this attitude of "Don't trust the GM unless they can show you their character sheets!" strikes me as far too adversarial. I follow Kromm on this one - an adversarial GM/player relationship is indicative of poor interpersonal skills, and I see no reason to encourage it. Therefore I, at least, will continue to remind new GMs that they don't need to worry about point cost for most NPC abilities, just effect.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Darekun

There's also the matter that this reply comes up when asking how to stat weird abilities, or abilities that fall into cracks in the system.

The point is, though, that "weird" abilities only need to be statted out using the character creation rules when their point cost is relevant.

Take, for example, bi-location, being in two separate planes of existence at once, and interacting with both of them. Rules-wise, it's darn difficult to stat up in GURPS (I had to do it for a Shadowrun game, where players could take it, so I know!). But if PCs, Allies, Enemies, etc. can't take it, then the only thing that matters is the effects - can someone climb up a staircase in one world and appear to be walking up air in the other, for example? Those are typically much easier to figure out, and if you can figure out the effects, there's no point wracking your brain working out how many points it costs.

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Icelander

This is, to my understanding of the rules and according to Kromm's interpretations on the forums, incorrect. The Storm Troopers have a job, worth 0-points.* In the course of carrying out that job, they have access to equipment, but they are not the legal owners of that equipment, they cannot take it on adventures unrelated to their job and they can't ask the Empire to help them with personal goals.

A stormtrooper who is secretly the son of a high-ranking admiral who will protect him especially and who can influence orders and posting has a Patron. A regular one has a job.

*They also have a Duty, Extremely Hazardous and worth [-20] points, but that's not all that germane to this point.

Far be it from me to question an invocation of the mighty Kromm, but I assert that a Storm Trooper's association with the Empire very drastically affects his combat effectiveness -- at least, as it impacts his interactions with the PCs. Maybe he can't use any of the issued equipment or Imperial power for his "personal goals," but when in the game are we going to get into Stan the Storm Trooper's life ambitions? We're probably not, so we can assume, for the purpose of the game, that his primary ambition is to "kill the Good Guys." In that endeavor, he has the full weight and support of the Empire, including sub-arctic gear, forest speeders, and ground & air support. Even taking into account his Duty, he comes out ahead in "Threat Posed to PCs."

But that's neither here nor there. It was an example of how points can be used to model access to equipment and tactically-advantageous connections.

In my experience, knowing the tactical variables, including Attributes and skills, helps in the process of eyeballing. Knowing the total point value adds zero information to that.

I guess all I'm saying is that many tactical variables, such attributes, advantages, skills, and equipment, can be modeled with character points. Ergo, paying attention to the number of character points spent on tactically-relevant stats is one way of gauging relative effectiveness. I agree that total point value gives little indication of overall combat effectiveness ... but ignoring points filters out one form of information. If you get zero information from them, it's not because the information isn't there, but because you're filtering it out.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by CousinX

Given that I choose to give the PCs a sporting chance in most fights, I find that it does help to know the relative power level of the people that the party will meet in tactical combat. I agree that equipment is overwhelmingly important in combat ... and there are a great number of points-based traits that deal with equipment. Wealth, Signature Gear, High/Low Tech, etc. When statting out Storm Troopers, for example, be sure to take into account that each and every one has Patron: The Empire (Giant Interstellar Organization, appears almost all the time, grants equipment at least equal to average starting wealth, and has "special abilities" in the form of being able to do anything that Darth Vader gets it in his head that he wants to do) [180 points].

The point value of the combat advantages that a Storm Trooper gets from working for the empire are only a miniscule fraction of what that Patron would be worth if he got his equipment another way and that point value doesn't reflect his individual combat effectiveness even a little bit. So no, I wouldn't think that would be helpful.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

I support the idea of a 'nowing' tag as has been mentioned or something similar. The tag can be added to the thread title in [brackets] to indicate that a more crunchy and detailed answer is desired. Alternatively, [nowing] could be typed into a post to indicate that more details than what have been given are desired.

I do not support adding an additional hoop for people to jump through to get a helpful answer on the forums. If ithere is a shared perception that it happens as some of the people here are saying it does, there are less burdensome ways to help these people, like a sticky or a FAQ entry.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by zorg

iirc, Sauron was pretty good at skiing, but bad at dancing.

But Sauron was GREAT at dancing (when he still had feet). He was a former courtier, you know.

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Well what your saying is Heresy on that order of magnitude, to those of us who take the 'only stat the clever bits' stance.

Im not sure how you ensure the breadth of developement for NPCs is similar to PCs, but if its working for you, KEEP DOING IT. If it keeps working for you, try to articulate how your doing it, heck Id read that thread. If it stops working for you, you can always come back to this one. :)

Nymdok

Well, if there's one thing that most people can agree I'm good at, it's heresy. :)

I don't really try for any kind of breadth of development for most NPCs, although I do develop important recurring ones to (a) reflect their in-game accomplishments, and (b) keep them competitive with the party for future encounters. There's not really much of a science to it, but point values keep it sane ... if the PCs have earned 20 points since their last encounter with the Dark Avenger, I'll know to ratchet him up about the same amount before their next meeting. So a level or two in his main combat skills, maybe a minor new ability, balanced with what the PCs have developed.

Alls I'm sayin is, points mean something, or they wouldn't be used to balance characters against one another. Take them for what they're worth -- they can give some ballpark ideas and sanity checks, but must be taken with a grain or five of salt, your mileage may vary, offer not available in all areas, taxes and acquisition fees may apply, must take delivery of dealer's stock.

[Ragitsu]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

I do not support adding an additional hoop for people to jump through to get a helpful answer on the forums.

I feel the same way. Even then, there are STILL going to be folks chiming in with "You don't need stats for that".

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

In all cases, I outright ignore points when making NPCs and NPC templates. Points only matter for PCs, after all. If a player ever takes an Ally or Enemy (or Patron, or Dependent), of course, I'll actually pay attention to the point total.

Don't you see a rather circular character to your reasoning here, wrt the stated issue of this thread?