[DF] Summoned allies questions:

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

The new Kromm interpretation is not in the Rules as Written.



Since the subject at issue is a novel interpretation of the rules, it is perfectly reasonable to test the correctness of that novel interpretation with an assessment of its reasonability.

The subject at issue is not a new interpretation, it is Kromm's explanation of RAW. As has been mentioned elsewhere, his post here is RAW.

[chimchim]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Q: How does it make sense to charge =100% for Conjuring which (a) replaces dead allies, and (b) allows you to summon them at will, while also purporting to charge +100% for Summonable in which (a) you lose an ally who dies and (b) can only be summoned once per adventure?

A: It does not make sense. The interpretation given by Kromm on this thread makes no sense in the context of what already exists.

My answer
Because conjured allies are not automaticaly loyal and stay for one minute unless further enhancements are added.
Summoned ones are loyal and stay until either dismissed or killed or the adventure ends.
Sounds a reasonable set of trade offs for the same enhancement value to me.

[kirbwarrior]

Loyalty is a pretty big issue when it comes to Allies. Makes it seem Minion is better on a conjured ally than any other.

Is the only issue group B having is the price of Summonable? If I were to change anything with a house rule, I would just change the price and use other enhancements to bring it to what I'd want.

Now, since Fire Elemental crossing a boat seems to be pretty popular, let's say you didn't have Summonable attached to it. How would you get across said ocean with your friend? As far as I can tell, I'm not sure s/he would ever be able to partake in adventures with you as long as you are over there. Which makes Summonable an advantageous thing again (since bad is better than worse).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I think we need to separate two different conversations here, because it's getting a little muddled.

One conversation is about what the books actually say, and the official rulings.

The other conversation is about "Hang what the books actually say or don't say, this is what we figure it should be."

There seems to be a lot of people that think they're having conversation B arguing with the people discussing A, and people discussing A getting crosswired with B conversations.

Since the threadsurrection, I haven't talked about B at all. I already made houserules about Summonable the first time around, and the game I'm in are also using houserules. I'm talking about A because exploring the technicalities is interesting to me.

I don't think that Kromm's explanation, if taken totally rigidly, is complete or even especially workable. I'm interested in figuring out what the RAW ought to mean that actually makes sense.

Do you think that he means that you can't conjure a replacement for a dismissed ally in the same adventure but you can replace a dead one? What's the difference?
Should arbitrary lengths of game time prevent re-summoning just because the GM gave them the The Same Title? Why can't the same 24 hour limit on Summonings apply? That still seems to be just as reasonable an interpretation of the RAW. Summonable does turn Ally from a metagame trait to an in-game ability. It's creating dissonance here because we are insisting on a metagame limit to it.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Q: How does it make sense to charge =100% for Conjuring which (a) replaces dead allies, and (b) allows you to summon them at will,

Not at will. One successful conjuration per 24 hours.

Originally Posted by Dragondog

The subject at issue is not a new interpretation, it is Kromm's explanation of RAW. As has been mentioned elsewhere, his post here is RAW.

For some of us (maybe most?) it is a "new" interpretation in that it's not how we thought the thing works.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Loyalty is a pretty big issue when it comes to Allies. Makes it seem Minion is better on a conjured ally than any other.

Power Talent adds to reaction rolls (and never the summoning roll in the first place). Also, in DF at least the Summoners have the appropriate x Empathy traits to use Influence skills on the Conjured.

Now, since Fire Elemental crossing a boat seems to be pretty popular, let's say you didn't have Summonable attached to it. How would you get across said ocean with your friend? As far as I can tell, I'm not sure s/he would ever be able to partake in adventures with you as long as you are over there. Which makes Summonable an advantageous thing again (since bad is better than worse).

Except that it doesn't do anything at all if that boat trip happens to be in the middle of the adventure. Which is utterly bizarre from an in-game perspective. Even weirder if we insist on literally interpreting Kromm here is that you can Conjure a new elemental in Act III if one died in Act I but you can't if you dismissed it.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

For some of us (maybe most?) it is a "new" interpretation in that it's not how we thought the thing works.

That seems fairly clear from what people are posting in this thread. It seems SJGames intention didn't come across as well as they thought it did in the book. Now it has been explained.

Like others, I wouldn't mind knowing what the cost would be if Summonable had worked as some readers thought it did.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

That seems fairly clear from what people are posting in this thread. It seems SJGames intention didn't come across as well as they thought it did in the book. Now it has been explained.

So you say, except that the explanation is incomplete and somewhat unworkable. I think it could stand some further clarification.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

That seems fairly clear from what people are posting in this thread. It seems SJGames intention didn't come across as well as they thought it did in the book. Now it has been explained.

Like others, I wouldn't mind knowing what the cost would be if Summonable had worked as some readers thought it did.

As per RAW, taking the "one-minute" approach to make it a spell, then slap Extended Duration to make it last longer and Reduced Time to shrink the cooldown. To completely make it reliable, make them Constantly Available and throw on something to make it so you never have to resummon them (Reflexive works closely, so it feels okay to have Cosmic: No need to resummon with them Constantly available).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

As per RAW, taking the "one-minute" approach to make it a spell, then slap Extended Duration to make it last longer and Reduced Time to shrink the cooldown. To completely make it reliable, make them Constantly Available and throw on something to make it so you never have to resummon them (Reflexive works closely, so it feels okay to have Cosmic: No need to resummon with them Constantly available).

It's cheaper, with the "Classical Interpretation" to just take Conjuration and then kill rather than dismiss your own allies. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

[sir_pudding]

Clarifications!

Originally Posted by Kromm

If you're not limiting duration (say, to a minute, as I suggested), then it isn't fair to allow you to conjure a dismissed Ally as soon as you want to, but "next adventure" is extreme . . . I'd go with 24 hours.

Sure.

The difference between Summonable and Conjured isn't to do with duration or frequency or anything else tied to time. They are identical in that respect. The difference is that a Summonable Ally is unique, loyal, and irreplaceable, and amounts to a normal Ally plus the ability to "gate" him to you, while a Conjured Ally is always a different entity that might not react well to you, but that's infinitely replaceable should he die.

So basically it works like I thought it did in the first place. Whew! Nothing to see here, move along.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

... As has been mentioned elsewhere, his post here is RAW.

And at the risk of offending, I say that's nonsensical.